Kristina Keneally: Religion certainly belongs in politics

December 16, 2015 • 12:30 pm

When I say “religion shouldn’t mix with politics,” it’s not because I don’t think that, in principle, religion shouldn’t influence people’s stands on issues. It’s just that when it does, at least in the U.S., it’s rarely for the better. The opposition to gay rights and gay marriage, as well as to abortion; the promotion of prayers and legally-taught creationism in public schools; views on euthanasia; the “just world” view of the poor (“the poor deserve what they get”); and even opposition to global warming—all of these views (and virtually all promotion of creationism) simply wouldn’t be as pervasive without religion. And I won’t even mention the politics of countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia, which are not only harmfully infected with Islam, but are almost coincident with Islam.

In contrast, when people do good in the name of faith, I suspect they would have done good anyway, for they’re simply good people. I really do think Steven Weinberg was on to something when he said, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Well, it can also take unthinking ideology, as in the case of the Nazis and Stalinists. But it’s the invidious effect of religion on politics and morality, and faith’s ubiquitous side-effect of proselytizing, that convinces me that we should be deeply suspicious of politicians who get advice from God, or even who claim that their faith informs their politics.

But Kristina Keneally, former head of Australia’s Labor party and premier of New South Wales (now a commentator on Sky News), thinks otherwise. Or so she argues in a new Guardian piece, “Of course my faith influenced my political decisions, as did my gender. So what?” She’s a pious Catholic, which makes it more worrisome.  While arguing that most of the decisions she made had nothing to do with her faith, she starts off on a bad foot:

Religion isn’t silly, of course. Neither is politics, most of the time. Occasionally the two intersect.

Well, yes, religion is silly, both its tenets (a man’s death on a cross redeemed us all from a sin committed by two nonexistent progenitors of all humans) and its trappings (have you seen what the Pope and his cardinals wear?). And it’s based on the firm belief in things that either cannot be demonstrated or have been disconfirmed. So yes, religion is silly: it’s a childish thing that humanity should have long ago put away.

Keneally’s argument that it’s no more irrational for religion to inform politics than gender, or economics, as in the quote below, is bogus:

Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ but I am also a disciple of Joseph Stiglitz. Why did no journalist ever ask how much my economic thinking influenced my political decisions?

Well, maybe it’s because at least you can adduce evidence for views on economic policy (Paul Krugman does this regularly in the New York Times), but you can’t for Christianity. And as for gender, if a woman has experienced discrimination, it sensitizes her to its ubiquity and bad effects in her country, and so it’s perfectly rational to inform your politics with gender. I would argue, in fact, that the natural stand on abortion by women should be pro-abortion (or its euphemism “pro-choice”) rather than “pro-life,” since laws forbidding abortion take away a woman’s choice over what she does with a parasitic fetus (see Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “parasite” argument).

Likewise, it’s rational to inform your politics with your ethnicity. That’s exactly what American blacks did in the Sixties, and of course that produced the Civil Rights act and a new era of legal equality. The view that the U.S. would be better off without segregation didn’t come from a revelation or scripture (which usually says the opposite)—it came from observation and reflection.

But where Keneally really goes off the rails is when she explains why we shouldn’t trust atheist politicians:

 . . . In fact I have often wondered about atheist politicians. Surely the logical conclusion to atheism is nihilism, in which case, why bother engaging in political activity, trying to improve the lives of your fellow citizens and make the world a better place? Which politician is scarier: the one who insists there is ontological meaning and transcendental purpose to our lives, or the one who denies objective truth and believes that existence is ultimately a useless void?

I’d say the former! The religious-activist politician in the U.S. is likely to be an evangelical Christian Republican, and we know what they’re trying to do to the country. Further, Keneally is simply dead wrong when she claims that atheists are nihilists and therefore wouldn’t make good politicians. Is she aware of the fact that there are atheist politicians (not many will admit to that in the U.S.) and that, more important, many atheists are out there doing good? We don’t lie abed all day, dumbstruck by nihilism. One would think that someone with two neurons to rub together would realize this and jettison the “atheists-are-nihilists” argument. It’s simply dumb.

Keneally’s trump card: religion has always been with us, and always will:

There are those who argue religious belief has no place in civic discourse. Yet from the earliest periods of recorded history we are presented with evidence that human beings possess a spiritual dimension. The people with the longest continuous cultural history on Earth, Aboriginal Australians, tell rich spiritual stories to explain creation and humanity’s relationship to it.

Human beings are physical and they are spiritual. They bring their spiritual selves, however expressed, to their political discussions. This is not a threat to civil society. For thousands of years the spiritual life of human beings has supported and encouraged the extension of human rights, the establishment of civic communities, promulgation of the public good and extraordinary acts of self-sacrifice for one’s fellow citizens.

Here she’s confusing “spirituality” with “morality”. Those of us on this site—most of us, I suspect—who favor gay rights, equality of women and ethnic minorities, and other liberal values, don’t do so out of our “spiritual dimension,” but because we think these stands have salubrious effects on society.

So yes, let’s keep religion out of politics, and by all means let us ask politicians to tell us whether and how their political views are colored by their faith. That’s a perfectly fair question.

What do we replace religion with, then? Why, with secular humanism and secular morality—much better guides to running societies.

I’ll leave it to the Aussie readers to tell me how Keneally fared as a politician in their land.

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Kristina Keneally

h/t: Phil D.

124 thoughts on “Kristina Keneally: Religion certainly belongs in politics

  1. Surely the logical conclusion to atheism is nihilism

    Where “surely” = “I have no argument for this assertion, but…”

    1. Yes, I notice that Keneally doesn’t seem able to distinguish between “atheists are nihilists who have no values” and “according to the way *I* think about where meaning and values come from, atheists ought to be nihilists who have no values … and the fact that they don’t behave that way only shows how confused they really are.”

      That’s kind of an important distinction.

      1. Make you wonder if she bothered to ask an atheist about her hypothesis before she put pen to paper. Shirley she jests.

        1. Of course she didn’t. Didn’t you hear? Atheists don’t believe in objective truth, apart from the majority that do, so there.

          The suggestion is that tired old nut: “Without God, I’d have no truth or values! The Earth would never exist without God! My morality would be non-existent! They plainly exist, ergo god.” Leaving aside the logical fallacy here of affirming the consequent, she’s practically admitted she’s on a god crutch.

          Poor woman. Religion broke her legs long ago and convinced her this was normal. No wonder she can’t understand us.

    2. Also, why does she think that denying objective truth is part of either atheism or nihilism? Theists of course think that atheists are mistaken about what’s true, but to claim we don’t even think there is a truth?

      *scratches head*

        1. Yeah, I considered writing something about projection, but, to split hairs and argue a very minor detail (not very busy today), I think she means something more fundamental than accepting or denying individual propositions. I would say that theists may deny a proposition (like TToE), but they do think truth is out there. I think she’s claiming that atheism entails the rejection of the very notion of truth.

    3. Atheism denies the false belief in gods. Nihilists just try to eliminate all false beliefs, like free will, purpose etc…

      If you think there really exist morally good and bad things in the world, you are no nihilist or at best a partial nihilist.

      A lot of people think when there is no bigger purpose you still can make your own. See f.i. existentialism, post-modernism, post-structuralism, deconstructionism. Personally I don’t think that’s nihilism but just another way deluding yourself.

      1. I think you’re confusing skepticism with nihilism, especially in that first paragraph. Of course, a popular misunderstanding of skepticism is that it is or it automatically entails nihilism, akin to not believing in fairies when there’s a verifiable one right in front of you.

      2. Nihilism is the end point of recognising no external ‘ethical/moral’ framework.
        Cows, Lions etc tend not to ponder the eightfold path to enlightenment yet still manage meaningful lives and strong families.
        Most confuse the natural order, behaviour is neccesarily different depending on you relationship to other.

      3. “Personally I don’t think that’s nihilism but just another way deluding yourself.”

        How is it deluding yourself if you recognize that the source is your own subjective feelings? You’re not claiming an absolute truth, just recognizing that certain behaviors lead to certain results that you emotionally favor. You’re being completely honest about where your feelings of morality, meaning, or purpose come from.

        Heck, I just went and looked up Nihilism on Wikipedia, which is obviously 100% accurate, and it had this to say:

        “Most commonly, nihilism is presented in the form of existential nihilism, which argues that life is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. Moral nihilists assert that morality does not inherently exist, and that any established moral values are abstractly contrived.”

        There are the additional connatations of pessimism and despair that I don’t share, but that much, at least, seems reasonable.

        1. Well said Jeff.
          The great barrier for most humanists /atheists is the recognition of this link between our unconscious feelings and our world view.
          Strange that most humanists tend to see the world in a fairly xtian way without questioning the source of their own mortality.

  2. Surely the logical conclusion to Catholicism is drowning all newborns in their baptistery, so there’s not a chance they’ll die in a state of sin and will definitely go to heaven?

      1. Well, it tends to follow from Catholicism, but I don’t think it follows logically. But killing children at the moment of their baptism should. Next time I meet a Catholic, I’ll ask them why not.

        1. damn. fat fingers
          priestly celibacy in about the 12th century. Before then, there wasn’t much of a problem. To be honest, until post-Reformation, the regulations were honoured as much in the breach as the observance, bringing the Church of Rome firmly back into the mainstream of licentious prelatry.

  3. “Human beings are physical and they are spiritual. They bring their spiritual selves, however expressed, to their political discussions. This is not a threat to civil society.”

    Kristina, have you ever heard of Saudi Arabia? I guess not.

    1. But that’s the wrong kind of spirituality, dontcha know.

      Catholic Spirituality™ on the other hand, has always been a proponent of civil society. /1984

  4. Yes, I believe in Jesus Christ but I am also a disciple of Joseph Stiglitz. Why did no journalist ever ask how much my economic thinking influenced my political decisions?

    Here is the thing: I do in fact judge politicians based upon their economic leanings. I would not vote for someone who espoused the Austrian school of economics for example.

    Much as I wouldn’t vote for the kind of bigoted piece of shit who argues that atheism=nihilism and therefore should disqualify one from holding office.

    But when I say that of the latter, well that’s somehow not very PC.

    And of course she’s the precise kind of “ally” liberals keep telling us we should be working so hard to play nicely with.

    1. “Here is the thing: I do in fact judge politicians based upon their economic leanings.”

      Me too. Kenneally is correct in that political/economic philosophy is critical in a politician.

      This Joseph Stiglitz appears to be (quick Google) a socially responsible moderate, in economic terms. On that basis, I’d sooner vote for Kenneally than a Friedmanist free market fundamentalist.

      Even if she is a bit wonky on atheism.

      cr

  5. Human beings are physical and they are spiritual. They bring their spiritual selves, however expressed, to their political discussions.

    Fine. And do we then get to debate and argue over people’s spiritual beliefs? If there are no reasonable secular reasons to do X, do we all get to go after the religious reasons to do X — particularly with regard to their truth, their conherency, their validity, and their ability to defend themselves against the full onslaught of contradictory views? Can we call for a vote and revote at regular intervals?

    No, I thought not. And that is why religion does NOT belong in politics. It refuses to play by the rules. A background informed by one’s race, sex, nationality, or economic education doesn’t absolve anybody from having to support their conclusions in the usual way.

    Women do not come into political forums and claim that their “women’s intuition” exempts them from having to prove their point. But religion does this all the time. How do you know there’s a God, can you formulate and test the hypothesis in a way which will persuade skeptics? Gosh no, skeptics don’t have open hearts! You don’t test God, God tests you and other malarkey and shenanigans.

    You can’t bring your “spiritual selves” to your political discussions until you can support your “spiritual selves” in a scientific discussion — and win a scientific (not popular) consensus. So there’s your problem, right there.

    1. It should be ‘spiritual slaves’. Closed logic and the burden of maintaining a faith agenda. This is orthogonal to all progress for our species.

    2. For me religion in politics is more a question of truth in advertising: politicians are welcome to sell themselves as any sort of ‘product’ they want. Including a religious product. If I don’t like their brand or type of product, I won’t buy it. But I want them to characterize that product accurately so I can make a well informed decision on what to buy. So you might say that I want religion in politics to the extent that a politician really does pay attention to their religion. What I don’t want is irreligious politicians pretending they are devout, or vice versa, because that’s the political equivalent of ‘bait and switch.’ I cannot make a good decision about which politician I think will run the state/country the best if they lie about how they plan to run the state/country.

      1. I cannot make a good decision about which politician I think will run the state/country the best if they lie about how they plan to run the state/country.

        Well that’s you set up for a lifetime of serial disillusion by politicians.

        1. There’s pandering and then there’s outright deception. Perfect honesty isn’t needed for democracy to work. But if everyone’s a manchurian candidate for something else, then that’s not democracy either, that’s basically random draw.

    3. It’s Yet Another Non Overlapping Magisteria (YANOMA). Religion is one magisterium and politics is another, except when Religion wants to spread…

      Of course the original NOMA didn’t hold up to scrutiny either.

      1. NOMA might have stood up to scrutiny if Religion had restricted itself to the magesterium of invisible sky fairies and admittedly untrue claims. But since it continually tries to get involved with claims about the physical universe (“wine transforms into blood”, “prayer works”, “Mrs Jones and her dildo are more important than starving millions”), then it clearly will not restrict itself or it’s proponents to one magesterium and not overlap from there.
        We used to have a sewage plant where the solids and liquids treatments were non-overlapping mechanical magesteria. Until the pump separating the wtwo realms broke down. Then, in deference to our host, “Och Vey!”

  6. Although she is an Aussie now, she grew up a Yank, and an enthusiastic catholic as well. Do not think she is in politics any longer. I always have trouble understanding women in this religion but it’s a good bet she has never heard of Islam. I’ll just repeat something from Taslima Nasrin.

    Religion is a profitable business. You do not need to invest anything but ignorance.

  7. Which politician is scarier: the one who insists there is ontological meaning and transcendental purpose to our lives, or the one who denies objective truth and believes that existence is ultimately a useless void?

    Dear Ms. Kenealy: Question for you. Would you prefer to live in Saudi Arabia or Sweden?

    Case closed.

  8. Kristina was an OK politician and Premier. Her party, the ALP was badly on the nose when she assumed the premiership and she and her party were soundly defeated at the general election she contested. The ALP is, and was during her tenure, held in the death grip of the Union movement of which elements of it are quite venal and corrupt and hold undue influence over the party. As a result she was very much a lame duck Premier and unable to really do anything too significant as pPremier. Under different circumstances she might have been ok as a politician.

    I think her comments are a bit off though. We have had openly atheist politicians at all levels of government. Some good and some bad. Probably the big difference in Australia to the US is that whilst we do have fundamentalist and evangelicals in our Parliaments our politics is not influenced by them in the same way it appears the religious right influences politics in the US it is not to say it isn’t there but we are yet to have someone like Ben Carson stand for high office for example. This is partly because demographically people of no religion are the second biggest demographic after the Catholic faith and smart money is on it people the largest sectarian demographic at the next census which will be help next year. Note too 60 percent of the population report their faith as christian whilst only eight percent attend church more than once per month. Smart money is on no religion being the biggest demographic group at the next census. If you are interested this is a link to the study done by the Australian Bureau of Statistics on the religious demographics of Australia. I like the bit about Jedis http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/4102.0Main+Features30Nov+2013

    Hope I have provided something useful to the discussion

    1. Isn’t part of the ALPs problem that it is split between right wing faction/s and left wing faction/s, the former being strongly Catholic from the old DLP. My understanding (from across the Tasman) is that the nature of ALP politics has given the Catholic factions considerably more clout than might be expected by their general numbers.

    2. She was a puppet of the Catholic faction.
      What person ever got the job ‘because’tomorrow they were an athiest.

  9. She led Labor to a terrible defeat in NSW – though I think that had little to do with her religiously-driven policies (don’t remember her having any, but I’ve not kept a close eye on NSW affairs since moving to the ACT)

  10. denies objective truth

    If denying objective truth is a defining characteristic of atheism, I need to rethink either truth or atheism.

  11. At first I thought she had trodden out arguments from an old article again, but I see this is the old article from September where she was shredded in the comments section.

    Keneally used her political power to get a lot of state money spent on hosting a Catholic World Youth Day in Sydney. https://newmatilda.com/2008/10/23/who-cares-how-much-world-youth-day-cost-it-was-awesome/
    The non-tax paying Catholic Church was essentially gifted over $100 million dollars to run an advertising campaign.

    1. Good point, I forgot about that Catholic Youth Day, a disgusting use of taxpayers’ money (and I am a LNP voter). I never thought Keneally brought much of her religion to politics (as opposed to KRudd who always did a doorstop after church on Sundays).

  12. “…in fact, that the natural stand on abortion by women should be pro-abortion…”Per evolutionary theory, an organisms biological imperative is to try to maximize gene reproduction to next generation via fit (and often more numerous) progeny? Wouldn’t that be the ‘natural’ stand? How does Thompson’s argument of parasitic relationship override this?

    1. It still fits: directly, if a fetus has a fatal disease, or if the mother’s life is threatened – in this case, there is no biological benefit in carrying the fetus to term, or indirectly – if a mother is not in a good position to raise a child (e.g., single, trying to finish her education), and is not able to do a good job of raising the child and thus maximize the child’s chances for gene reproduction.

    2. Ecological carrying capacity.

      And maximising reproduction, human reproduction, as dangerous as it is, is a great way to kill women.

      Michelle Duggar hasn’t died from her numerous pregnancies only due to modern medicine.

  13. Weinberg’s saying “Religion is an insult to human dignity” reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from naturalist author Edward Abbey: “The supernatural is a failure of the human imagination and an insult to the majesty of the real.”

  14. “I would argue, in fact, that the natural stand on abortion by women should be pro-abortion (or its euphemism “pro-choice”)…”

    I’d respectfully disagree. It is often other persons who are pro-abortion: the male partner who doesn’t feel like becoming a father, the community that is not ready to accept a child out of wedlock, the society that doesn’t want another poor or disabled child. The woman must have the choice, because the fetus is in her body. If she knows her fetus will have Huntington’s disease and still decides to give birth, it’s her right. Not a wise choice IMHO, but her choice. So we are pro-choice, not “pro-abortion”.

  15. While I am marginally more sanguine about the influence of more humane forms of religiosity on politics than some secularists, the big flaw in this piece is that specifically apocalyptic-minded Christians are far more dangerously nihilistic than virtually all atheists. And if you make an exception for Friedrich Nietzsche, the nihilism of apocalyptic Christians is still far more alarming.

    I am reminded of a quote from Jean-Paul Sartre “It is only by confusing their form of despair with ours that Christians can accuse us of being pessimists”. (slightly paraphrased- I’m a bit in a rush to look it up.)

  16. A core belief of many religions is that there’s an “afterlife,” which means that this current existence is just a big waiting room, where we are either required to “learn lessons” or “swear allegiance” to one or other deity or their (self-appointed) representative(s).

    So this huge, marvellous and awe-inspiring universe is “meaningless” as apparently the real “meaning” comes after we die.

    And religionists have the temerity to call atheists nihilists!

  17. “…the “just world” view of the poor (“the poor deserve what they get”)…”

    Where did this idea come from? Certainly not any religion that I am aware of. Anyone who has actually bothered to take the time to read the New Testament (or even the Old), will find nothing like this therein.

    Yes, I know there are many in the U.S. who have a misguided view about what the Bible actually says (both atheists and theists are guilty of this), but in no conceivable way can it be interpreted to endorse Ayn Rand-style capitalism. It’s just impossible, these people are getting their lousy ideas elsewhere, not from the Bible, so you can’t accuse ‘religion’ of this specific offense.

    1. “5 Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;” Eph 6:5

      “Blessed are you who are poor, for yours in the kingdom of God. Blessed are you who hunger now, for you shall be satisfied. Blessed are you who weep now, for you shall laugh.” Luke 6:20-21

      “Did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?” James 2:5

      His point is the proposition that all will be “made right” in the “next world”. I’m not sure you understood him.

      1. If that was his point then, yes, I didn’t understand him, but I don’t think it was. The author of the article (J. Coyne? I can’t find a name) listed oppression of the poor, and this oppression being justified by the rich via recourse to religion, among other claims within the same sentence –

        “The opposition to gay rights and gay marriage, as well as to abortion; the promotion of prayers and legally-taught creationism in public schools; views on euthanasia; the “just world” view of the poor (“the poor deserve what they get”); and even opposition to global warming—all of these views (and virtually all promotion of creationism) simply wouldn’t be as pervasive without religion.”

        The above seems pretty simple and straightforward to me, and it is simply wrong. Alternatively, you may have meant that I didn’t understand Jesus (hence the quotes), but even so my point is still valid, that point being that the Bible does not claim that the poor ‘deserve what they get’. “Thou shalt make a killing on the stock-market”, is not one of the Ten Commandments.

        1. Pro-slavery groups in the US used Biblical verses like those presented above by jblilie to justify keeping blacks as slaves, that God had ordained for them to be slaves in this life. Yes, religion has been and still is used to justify treating poor people like shit. In fairness, abolitionists would also quote other Bible verses when making their arguments against slavery.

          Funny how that book seems capable of being used to justify just about anything.

  18. I tried to get through this article, but I just had to stop at this:

    “I would argue, in fact, that the natural stand on abortion by women should be pro-abortion (or its euphemism “pro-choice”) rather than “pro-life,” since laws forbidding abortion take away a woman’s choice over what she does with a parasitic fetus (see Judith Jarvis Thompson’s “parasite” argument).”

    So you actually agree with this odious ‘argument’ that a baby – a child, a person no less – is a parasite whilst in the womb, and that therefore killing him/her is no different from squashing a cockroach.

    From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Jarvis_Thomson

    under, “A Defence of Abortion”

    “You wake up in the morning and find yourself back to back in bed with an unconscious violinist. A famous unconscious violinist. He has been found to have a fatal kidney ailment, and the Society of Music Lovers has canvassed all the available medical records and found that you alone have the right blood type to help. They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist’s circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. … To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it’s only for nine months. By then he will have recovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you.”

    This is an important part of her ‘argument’, her justification for being ‘pro-choice’, and about the nicest thing I can say about it is that it is truly lousy.

    Now before anyone decides to accuse me of being ‘anti-choice’ (whatever that means), I should point out that, being male, this is an issue that will never affect me personally, and therefore I understand that to attempt to influence the decisions of others when confronted with a dilemma like this is not something that I would do. However, having said this, if this is one of the better arguments that pro-abortion activists have got, then they are well and truly bereft of ideas, utterly devoid of conscience.

    1. “So you actually agree with this odious ‘argument’ that a baby – a child, a person no less – is a parasite whilst in the womb, and that therefore killing him/her is no different from squashing a cockroach.”

      While in the womb it is neither a baby, a child or a person, certainly not in the early stages. Except in the opinion of Catholics and fundamentalists.

      Are you *sure* you’re an atheist?

      cr

      1. “Are you sure you’re an atheist?”

        Hmmm… let me think about that one. Well, I don’t believe in G/god, so YES.

        I do, however, believe that comparing a child (yes, it is one, for it has all the requisite genetic material already present to make it one when it finally pops out, and the parents of the aforesaid child are human, and not giraffes for example) to a parasite is, at the very least, dehumanising. I can understand why pro-abortionists would do this, because they want to make killing such children socially acceptable. Well, it won’t work, because most people are too sensible to fall for it.

        You can accept this answer or not, I don’t care, but you shouldn’t just lazily assume that ALL atheists are far-Left on the political spectrum, and pro-abortion. There are actually good (i.e. non-religious) reasons to believe that deliberately terminating a pregnancy is not always (or even most of the time) a good thing. How would you feel if, for example, a test were developed that could detect within a foetus/baby/child the signs of Asperger’s Syndrome, and it became routine to terminate such babies? Well, I can tell you now that if such had been available when I was born (back in the 60’s) I almost certainly would not have been born. Eugenics always was, and always will be, a bad idea, and yet that is the path we seem to be once again going down.

        1. I do, however, believe that comparing a child (yes, it is one, for it has all the requisite genetic material already present to make it one when it finally pops out, and the parents of the aforesaid child are human, and not giraffes for example) to a parasite is, at the very least, dehumanising

          They aren’t parasites but yes, they behave like them.

          They suppress the woman’s immune system and pump her full of hormones so that they can extract resources from her body, at great cost to her. In fact, what they do is release hormones that prevent the woman from using her own bodily resources for herself. And then they use her body as a toilet. See, zygotes embryos and fetuses are only alive because of women. They die ex utero because their organs are not yet functional. Women’s bodies are used by embryos as actual biological life support machines, sometimes without their explicit consent.

          In fact, embryos are similar to tumours:

          http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/science/a-tumor-the-embryos-evil-twin.html

          Next up, you say it’s dehumanizing. You should probably list the human qualities – other than h.sapiends DNA – that an embryo possesses that pro choicers are apparently denying.

          See, when we speak of dehumanization, we usually refer to an oppressed person, such as a slave. And that slave is dehumanized because their thoughts, their feelings, their hopes and their dreams are all denied because their owners prefer to compare them to mere animals, or lower.

          However, embryos are mindless. They do not think, they do not feel, and they do not have hopes or dreams. And i don’t see anyone denying that human embryos are not in fact human.

          Yes, human organisms, at a certain point in development, while *not* parasites, can certainly behave as such, for their survival.

          Deal with it.

        2. Oh, and as an addendum, I will point out that those embryos that require gestation all behave like this.

          So, I can say that a dog embryo also behaves in a parasitic manner.

          Yeah, I am totally dehumanizing that dog embryo by pointing out that it doesn’t behave ‘nicely’

        3. ‘“Are you sure you’re an atheist?”

          Hmmm… let me think about that one. Well, I don’t believe in G/god, so YES.’

          It’s just that in three successive comments, you (a) said that the Bible couldn’t be used to justify oppressing the poor, (b) equated a foetus to a person and (c) equated atheism to nihilism. All things one might expect [some] committed Christians to do.

          (I don’t think I mischaracterised your comments?)

          In fact your entire language about ‘killing children’ for example, is the kind of emotive rubbish we might expect from fundamentalists and Catholics.

          cr

          1. I don’t think you can hold (c) against him. Atheism is nihilistic in some senses of the word, per Jeff Lewis’s comment under #1.

            And my reference to Rosenberg (The Atheist’s Guide to Reality, chapters 5 and 6. But it’s “nice nihilism” rather than “happy nihilism”.)

            /@

          2. “The logical … consequence of atheism IS the view that, ultimately, nothing really matters in the end.”

            That may be literally true, as I conceded somewhere or other. But atheists are not thereby obliged to behave as if nothing matters right now.

            “I am simply pointing out the natural, logical consequences that inevitably follow from this view of reality being true.”

            What consequences might they be? Sounds ominous.

            cr

    2. The fetus is not a parasite but it certainly behaves like one.

      Do you have any idea how pregnancy actually works?

      And people have minds. Brainless/mindless embryos do not.

      1. So you admit that it’s not a parasite. I agree, it isn’t one.

        “And people have minds. Brainless/mindless embryos do not.”

        Ah, I see. So if someone is in a coma, we should just hurry up and kill them. After all, as far as we can tell, their mind is well and truly gone, and the fact that they may recover doesn’t matter because, at this point in time they do not have a mind, so…

        What kind of ‘logic’ is this?

        1. People who are in a coma have minds. They are sentient and sapient. They are temporarily not exercising those abilities.

          In fact, it is possible to read the specific brainwaves that are associated with sentience and sapience in coma victims:

          https://www.google.ca/search?q=n400+coma+patients+brain&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=kllzVob5DIqYjwPuqIz4Aw

          Lots of articles there.

          Now, an embryo has *never* been conscious, ie, capable of basic awareness, and might never be. Sometimes the brain doesn’t even develop and the baby is born with nothing but a brainstem.

          Fetuses do not gain the basic capacity for sentience until 25 weeks gestation, well past when the majority of abortions take place.

          Zygotes embryos and fetuses are not like little men with tiny brains that simply have to grow bigger over time. They are incomplete and unformed. That brain requires trillions of cells and very complex neural connections to function. Without cortical processing there can be no consciousness. No awareness. No basic perception.

          What kind of ‘logic’ is this?

          You are real cute. Before talking down to me, you should know what you are talking about first, ok.

          1. Sorry, I wasn’t ‘talking down’ to you (or at least I didn’t think I was). In text I sometimes, for some reason I don’t understand, come across as being confrontational, and condescending too. Maybe I need to stop reading D. B. Hart articles, perhaps his style is starting to influence me.

            “Cute”? Really? 🙂

            That’s sarcasm, isn’t it? 🙁

            Oh well.

    3. Why is her argument lousy? You say it is, but seem to think it self-evidently so rather than explaining its flaws.

      I think your revulsion to the parasite comparison may have blinded you to her real purpose. What I think she is doing is making a point about bodily autonomy. If we are not justified in forcing someone into the situation she describes, which is roughly analogous to a pregnancy (your body is needed to keep another alive, it will last nine months, there are physical costs you will incur), then how are we justified in forcing a woman to let a developing (as opposed to the example’s already developed) person use it in a similar manner?

      As for the use of the phrase pro-abortion rather than pro-choice, I’ve always seen the purpose as an attempt to not only maintain the legality of and access to abortion, but also to remove the stigma from it. I am pro-abortion, not in the sense that I think everyone should have as many as they can, but because I think there to be nothing ethically wrong with having one.

  19. ” . . . In fact I have often wondered about atheist politicians. Surely the logical conclusion to atheism is nihilism, in which case, why bother engaging in political activity, trying to improve the lives of your fellow citizens and make the world a better place? Which politician is scarier: the one who insists there is ontological meaning and transcendental purpose to our lives, or the one who denies objective truth and believes that existence is ultimately a useless void?” – K. Keneally

    In response: “I’d say the former! The religious-activist politician in the U.S. is likely to be an evangelical Christian Republican, and we know what they’re trying to do to the U.S.”

    Hellooo!!! The world is not the U.S. She was an AUSTRALIAN politician, the Premier of N.S.W. We don’t have bat-shit crazy loons like you do over there. The politicians in our country are more sedate, they take their Christianity less literally, they generally DON’T believe the Earth was created 6,000 years ago.

    Even though I am not a Christian, I agree 100% with what she says here. The logical – logical, not emotional, or something else – consequence of atheism IS the view that, ultimately, nothing really matters in the end. According to this view we are just chemistry and electricity in action, doomed to live for a while and then die, and whilst we are on this Earth our actions, thoughts and beliefs are pre-determined by the laws that exist within this physical realm.

    Now, I am not saying that this view of reality is inaccurate. I am simply pointing out the natural, logical consequences that inevitably follow from this view of reality being true.

    1. [atheism = ] “…According to this view we are just chemistry and electricity in action, doomed to live for a while and then die,”

      But, Peter, there are cats, wine, books, sex, travel, films, party hats, etc. What more does chemistry want?

        1. Sorry to leave out anyone’s favorite items, but the list would have been long and overly gratifying for such a serious forum. Besides, it’s dangerous to get into people’s favorite things. Some of them we don’t want to know about.

      1. So what if atheism leads to nihilism?

        “why bother engaging in political activity, trying to improve the lives of your fellow citizens and make the world a better place?”

        Because it has value to us.

        So we should not mistake our valuing of our pursuits for meaningfulness. The fact that humans, for a short slice of time, find fulfillment in doing nice or noble or beautiful things is simply another fact – a rather small one, really – within an entirely pointless existence. Isn’t that grand?

        Everything Is Meaningless – But That’s Okay” by Charlie Huenemann, 3 Quarks Daily

        /@

        1. “Because it has value to us.”

          Yes, I know, but I DID make the point that “ultimately” such values are transient. That doesn’t bother me in the slightest, because I know that in spite of this I can still achieve my aims, my desires whilst I have the time, and none of those desires involve living forever, or being ‘reunited with God’ as many Christians say is our ultimate destiny.

          So, technically, K. Keneally was correct in what she said. From the perspective of a committed theist, anything less than an eternity spent with their G/god (and they all expect to, none of them thinking they may actually end up in that other place – Hell) is unsatisfying. This life isn’t enough for them.

      2. So in other words, we do a pretty good job of filling in the void. Sounds sufficient to me. Esp. if you add the fact that altruism makes a lot of us feel good, so things get done along those lines, too.

    2. “we are just chemistry and electricity in action, doomed to live for a while and then die”

      and?

      So what?

      Whether you like the idea or not has no bearing on its validity.

      “The logical… consequence of atheism IS the view that, ultimately, nothing really matters in the end.”

      Yeah. Supposing some crazy apocalyptic Xtian nukes the whole human race, so what? The universe won’t care. The universe won’t even notice.

      BUT – and it’s a huge BUT that I should write in 80 point font – my life matters to ME. It’s the only one I’m going to get, ain’t no heaven to give me a re-run, so I’d better make the most of it. And fairness dictates that I shouldn’t fuck up other people’s only lives, either.

      So for me, as an atheist, it’s more important to live a good life, not less.

      If you can’t handle that idea and need an imaginary sky fairy to hold your hand, fine. Just don’t impose your fantasies on anyone else.

      cr

        1. “This ain’t no…”

          A double negative. If it ain’t no, then it is. A ‘rehearsal’ that is. So you agree with the theists on this.

          By the way, there is no need for the ‘F’ word!

          🙂

          1. 🙂

            I too sinned; I said there ‘ain’t no heaven’ which of course means there is. I just hope it’s full of bad girls.

            cr

      1. “…and?

        So what?”

        And… nothing. I was simply taking certain beliefs about the nature of reality to their logical, inevitable conclusion. That’s it.

        1. Not quite ‘it’.

          Your comment (and certainly Ms Kenneally, with whom you agree 100%) seems to contend that the nature of reality – (life’s brief and then you die) – means that nothing matters. And that adding God would improve things.

          Wrong on both counts.

          I contend that we give it meaning. My life means something to me (and a very few other people). That’s the best I’m going to get so I’ll make what I can of it. It would be a waste if I didn’t.

          cr

    3. Would you rather live in Saudi Arabia or Sweden?

      We give our lives meaning, no more, no less.

      I fail to see how believing in a (non-existent) sky-Daddy who seems to delight in drowning children in tsunamis or watching them die painfully of starvation, cancer, parasites, etc., provides any meaning whatsoever.

      What is the meaning there? Meaning is only derived from groveling before some alpha bully?

      1. “Would you rather live in Saudi Arabia or Sweden?”

        Neither actually (given a real choice).

        “I fail to see how believing in a (non-existent) sky-Daddy who seems to delight in drowning children in tsunamis or watching them die painfully of starvation, cancer, parasites, etc., provides any meaning whatsoever.”

        …and I fail to see how this is actually relevant to the point I made. No one – absolutely NO ONE – who understands the complex nuances and shades of meaning found within religious texts believes in invisible ‘Sky-Daddies’. Fundamentalists who take their sacred book of choice entirely literally simply don’t understand it to begin with. This whole ‘sky-daddy’ business is nothing but a red herring. Yes, I know, R. Dawkins and others of his ilk believe otherwise, but they are rather clueless when it comes to things like this.

        By the way, I am not defending, or attempting to defend, any theistic positions here, so I don’t want anyone once again asking, “Are you sure you’re an atheist?”. I am only interested in the truth, and long before I started responding to the articles here I would often see arguments that supposedly trashed the entire god concept that were truly awful, and quite frankly embarrassing in their ineptness. I often visit the Edward Feser website, and whenever he or any of his followers mention this place, they always do so with derision and scorn, because everyone who agrees with Dr. Feser’s position and leaves a comment there is thoughtful, well-informed, and understands the arguments both for and against the various shades of theism. I have yet to see anyone here present an argument against a belief in god that Dr. Feser wouldn’t instantly dismiss out of hand.

        1. Well, I’m certainly glad that at least one person has a perfect understanding of what the Bible means by “God”, and how it should be understood. Pity that you are at odds with not only fundamentalists, but many others as well, including the vast majority of Muslims.

          Speaking of Feser, he claims to know that animals don’t go to heaven. Do you agree with that? It’s certainly a thoughtful, well-informed position (NOT!). And I regard Feser’s delusions, and pretense to such knowledge, with derision and scorn, so we’re even.

        2. No one – absolutely NO ONE – who understands the complex nuances and shades of meaning found within religious texts believes in invisible ‘Sky-Daddies’. Fundamentalists who take their sacred book of choice entirely literally simply don’t understand it to begin with. This whole ‘sky-daddy’ business is nothing but a red herring.

          Nonsense. American Xian fundamentalists believe in an anthropomorphic, interventionalist god. A permanent father, watching over them, ready to punish them if they “offend” him. This is hundred million or so of educated “westerners”. And this is also true of many observant Muslims and Jews.

          I have read the entire Bible (in translation: both the KJV and NIV). I’ve read the Koran (in translation). I’ve read the Vedas, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, the I Ching, the Tao Te Ching, etc. (all in translation).

          I’m pretty sure I understand them.

          The fact that they need to be “interpreted” by “experts” should tell you all you need to know: One can read into them anything one wishes. By selectively choosing what one wishes to take serious from them. This conforms to my reading of the religious texts.

          “[C]omplex nuances and shades of meaning” just mean that it doesn’t mean anything. It’s too vague to be taken seriously. (And this is theologian talk. Just add in “expresses”, “reveals”, “addresses”, “manifests”, and a few other theo-buzz words and you’ll have it.)

          Obviously people take comfort from the platitudes selectively chosen from these texts. They could, possibly, even sparks thoughts in peoples heads that prompt them to alter their behavior (in positive (e.g. kicking drugs) or negative ways (e.g. ISIS)).

          The KJV of the Bible (helped by a big transmission via Shakespeare) is important to English literature. Xianity is an important aspect of western history. These things should be studied in school.

          But none of that changes the absurdity of almost all religious beliefs. They all involve believing things for which there is no good evidence: A fault in all other areas of inquiry.

          You claim that religion provides meaning for the religious. I agree. But it is not a kind of meaning (groveling before some imaginary “lord”) that makes any sense to me. (I am very familiar with Xian liturgy and teaching; this is groveling.)

          You seem to think these texts are important beyond the people who accept them as supernaturally created. (I agree that they are important culturally and as historical documents). Name a single instance in which religion (one of these texts or otherwise) was correct about a fact of the universe and science was wrong about that same fact.

  20. Just a small note: Keneally was head of the New South Wales Labor Party – that is, at the state level. She was never leader at the federal level.

    1. I’d gathered so, but have to admit that the first time someone used the title “Premier” here I had to think twice…Quite the powerful title for a state level position. 🙂

  21. She likes aboriginal creation stories? So I am sure she worked hard to make sure they got equal treatment with Christian creation stories. Al Franken had a great bit on his radio show where a “native American” explained that he was all in favor of teaching creationism in public schools – as long as it was his tribe’s version. [I have always thought that native American creation stories were much more interesting than the Biblical ones.]

  22. Funnily enough, when she speaks on any other matter (sans religion) she is worth listening to, and comes across as informed, compassionate, and a humanist. Then she wrote this piece… She also wrote this: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/dec/09/tony-abbott-you-do-know-you-belong-to-a-church-that-has-not-reformed-dont-you in response to former Prime Minister Abbott’s attack on Islam, where she basically says ‘don’t chastise Islam when Christianity ain’t been so good’..ugh.

    As for religion being ‘silly’ because it has silly hats…have you seen low-slung (secular) pants and hipster beards and stilettos and…(insert appropriate outlandish fashion victim garb).

  23. “or the one who denies objective truth”

    A religious person using this line to describe an atheist completely gives up her credibility…

  24. Religion has played such a huge part in civilization just on a null hypothesis you’d expect there to be a shedload of subpar actions/periods.
    But we’re living in a time when Christianity has been subject to really malign negative propaganda. What I would like to understand better, is exactly how does one proceed in a rational truth seeking manner, absent substantial focus on the actual climate in play, and the various groups and interests underlying that.
    Just look at the way something like the import of Galileo Galilei is dealt in popular history. It’s absolute rubbish the claims that the Vatican behaved unreasonably. They didn’t. They simply backed the received wisdom of the day, and, they encouraged Galileo to write a book about it.
    He wrote a book that ridiculed the Pope. Humiliated him in a way that would not be acceptable today. Even then, they didn’t react harshly at all. They kept returning asking him to just tone it down a bit, the ridicule. His book was based on a ‘hypothetical’ pair of characters where one was obviously the pope. Within a plot in which he was a fool.
    In the end when he wouldn’t, he got a slap on the wrists.
    That’s not an isolated incidence. There’s massive prejudice against the contributions of the church. That’s not rational. Or truth seeking. It’s mucking and sucking in the swamp of the day. To make a living.

    1. I have to agree with you that the Church’s dealings with Galileo was tamer than it could have been. Over time many in Galileo’s shoes would have been burned at the stake (Giordano Bruno). He was sensetive to the political context. He knew he was, in fact, lucky in a personal security sense. Also, it appears that he was a recalcitrant personality, not good at accepting fools gladly. On the other hand he was not just documenting current scientific understanding, as a reference guide to sit on the Pope’s shelves. He knew he was at the vanguard of a scientific revolution which completely contradicted the current climate of the day. He undoubtedly had the idea that he had arrived at a crux in human history where the establishment would be slowly replaced. It was for him, I think, free investigation of nature, vs authoritarian dogma. He clearly felt the need to make an issue of this situation, and he did so in the best way he could – by writing satire or ridicule of the old guard. It turned out he was absolutely correct about all this and the church was just the standing in the way of the future.
      The significance of Galileo is now clearly understood even if the details of his protest are often somewhat confused in the schoolbooks.

      1. Explicitly. He saw evidence as replacing authority.

        “What was observed by us in the third place is the nature or matter of the Milky Way itself, which, with the aid of the spyglass, may be observed so well that all the disputes that for so many generations have vexed philosophers are destroyed by visible certainty, and we are liberated from wordy arguments.

        Sidereus Nuncius, 1610

        1. “we are liberated from wordy arguments.”

          Ain’t that the truth. Galileo was a key to freeing mankind from thousands of years of myth and superstition. What could make any life more important and meaningful?

    2. So assuming you are characterizing Galileo’s work accurately (which is extremely debatable, but never mind): being an ass results in being threatened with torture and being put under house arrest? Is *that* reasonable??

    3. “He wrote a book that ridiculed the Pope. Humiliated him in a way that would not be acceptable today.”

      Acceptable to whom?

      And who says?

      It’s acceptable to ridicule the pope in any way one pleases.

      House arrest for the rest of your life is a “slap on the wrist”? Never been held against your will, have you? And who the hell gave the pope that kind of authority in the first place?

      The whole thing should just make everyone glad that the Catholic Church is now more or less powerless in world affairs. I know the Cathars would think so if they could.

  25. That seems to be not quite correct.

    Certainly Galileo treated the character of ‘Simplicio’ in his book, who defended the Ptolemaic system, with derision. It was unfortunate that one of Simplicio’s arguments had been made by Pope Urban, who took it personally. It seems unlikely Galileo intended this.
    (Also, he got the orbits wrong, he never realised they were elliptical).

    Considering how mad the Pope was, the authorities seem to have ‘gone easy’ on Galileo, possibly in deference to his eminent reputation.

    But still, the fact that his book (like all books) had to be submitted to and approved by the censor before publication, does no credit at all to the catholic church who established the whole thought-police system.

    There is a shedload of subpar actions.

    cr

    1. The fact he could do that speaks for itself. It isn’t incumbent for that point to stand, on whoever, to demonstrate a civic standard in that day, basically the day after the feudal day, commiserate with the post-war period in Western Europe or whatever. The point is that the soup we’re swimming is immensely pejorative in terms of the current and historical part of the church.

      1. P.S. you expressed doubts Galileo Galilei was consciously ridiculing the pope. This really comes down to appreciation of the crisis in the field of History in our time. Almost nothing in popular history is reliable, and a lot of it is so misleading one would be better off knowing nothing at all. One would know more.
        Good historians are out there. For that period, from a wholly scientific and mathematical perspective you could do no better than thony cristie
        https://thonyc.wordpress.com/

        I recommend you pop in there when you have a spare moment. Search his blog on Galileo I’m sure you’ll find plenty. But even if you aren’t interested that much in this specific thing, I guarantee you’ll find yourself spending time with his blog.

        1. thonyc does a great job, and lays out details very carefully.

          However, there’s a danger of loosing sight of the wood for the trees. What business did the church have in disputing GG’s findings in the first place? Yes, he was wrong in detail and lacked the evidence to confirm his hypothesis at that time (even though he was essentially right), but the church was clobbering him with an argument from papal authority.

          /@

        2. I did google ‘galileo simplicio’ and read several of the links. According to Wikipedia, ‘Simplicio’ was based on Lodovico delle Colombe and Cesare Cremonini, not Pope Urban. The consensus (of the four accounts I’ve skimmed) seems to be that attributing Pope Urban’s favourite argument to ‘Simplicio’ was a mistake, not necessarily intentional.

          But whether Galileo was trying to follow the rules or was an awkward bastard, it really doesn’t let the Church off the hook.

          If Galileo was wrong, the rational way to counter it would have been to argue the observations (and I’ve read that his theory didn’t fit the observations any better than Ptolemy’s, since he didn’t adopt elliptical orbits), not invoke religious dogma or Papal fiat.

          cr

  26. If you’re going to use “pro-choice” as the euphemism for “pro-abortion”, then let’s be fair and recognize the proper euphemism for “pro-life”: “pro-birth”. After birth, most anti-abortionists don’t give a damn about what comes out. Or so it seems.

  27. Ms Keneally surely means only her particular cozy religious views or is she prepared to accept violently extremist christians, jews, muslims, buddhists, etc etc dabbling in politics and maybe actually being elected?

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