Self-abasing atheist at the Guardian calls atheism a “leap of faith”

October 29, 2015 • 11:30 am

When I read “Comment is free” (CiF) at the Guardian, I always wonder whether the name of that site is a double-entendre, meaning not only that people can write freely, but that (like HuffPo), they don’t get paid for it, either. (I’m not sure about that.) At any rate, one reason I wonder about such remuneration is because CiF pieces are often so lame and unthoughtful that it’s hard to believe the authors would be paid.

One of these pieces, which meshes conveniently with the Guardian’s continuing dislike of atheism (think Andrew Brown), is Saturday’s short aricle by Ijeoam Oluo, “My atheism does not make me superior to believers. It’s a leap of faith too.” Oluo is described as “a Seattle based writer and internet yeller. Her work on feminism and social justice has been featured in TIME, NY Magazine, Huffington Post, Jezebel, XOJane, SheKnows and many other places.”

You can tell from the title alone that this piece is going to be problematic. After all, by what lights can you see atheism as a “leap of faith”? What is the “faith” there? Failure to accept gods is no more a leap of faith than is doubting the existence of the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, or Santa Claus. It’s not “faith” when you refuse to accept a proposition for which there’s no evidence.

In general I agree with Oluo’s thesis that atheism usually jibes with a liberal outlook. Many conservative political views derive at bottom from religion. And there’s a lot of evidence that religion is often an outgrowth of social injustice: the heart of a heartless world. Ergo, if you’re an antitheist and want to work towards the abolition of faith, one way to do that is to improve the lives of the impoverished and dispossessed.

But not all atheists are antitheists, and not all of them accept the connection between social well-being and nonbelief. Atheism is simply the refusal to accept supernatural deities, and there are plenty of conservative atheists. The view that this life is all we have, and that we should help our fellow creatures, is not atheism but humanism.

But Oluo does more than argue that atheists should work more diligently for the welfare of humanity. She also wants to argue that atheists are just as bad as believers, for, she claims, our nonbelief motivates actions just as odious as those motivated by faith. This misguided trope seems to be spreading from some dark corners of the internet, based largely on the killings committed by two apparent atheists in North Carolina and Oregon. But there’s scant evidence that either of those killings was a result of nonbelief (see here and here), and it’s appalling how quick some atheists are to use these tragedies as evidence of an endemic rot in atheism.

Let’s face it: atheists may constitute up to 10% of Americans—or even more. That means that of them will be deranged, many will simply be bad people, and, yes, some may even target religious people for their crimes. But even one or two such crimes doesn’t indicate a serious problem with atheism itself—only that some atheists lack decency and civility. When you think of the vastly larger number of murders committed with at least a partly religious motivation, the statement of Steven Weinberg comes to mind:

“With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.”

I’d modify that to add “thoughtless ideology” to “religion”. But in general I think that well-meaning people can be influenced by religious indoctrination to do horrible things. Absent Islam, I doubt that most of the murderers of ISIS would be doing what they’re doing. But is a similar degree of brutality motivated by a disbelief in gods? I doubt it.

Oluo, who would like to believe in God, nevertheless can’t. That’s surely because she has no evidence for God, but she describes her nonbelief instead a religious-like “leap of faith”:

But my conviction that there is no God is nonetheless a leap of faith. Just as we have been unable to prove there is a God, we have also been unable to prove that there isn’t one. The feeling that I have in my being that there is no God is what I go by, but I’m not deluded into thinking that feeling is in any way more factual than the deep conviction by theists that God exists.

That’s just dead wrong. Oluo’s “feeling” must surely come from her observation that “we’ve been unable to prove that there’s a God,” i.e., a lack of evidence. It’s not a “feeling” like the one believers get when they sense God, but rather a conclusion based on the absence of evidence. That is, unless Oluo had some spiritual “revelation” that there’s no God. But that’s not the way most atheists come to nonbelief: it’s either that they were former believers who finally realized that their faith was nonsensical, or they dispassionately examined the evidence for God and found none. It amazes me that people still get away with equating atheism to the faith of religionists.

Oluo goes farther, though, seeing atheists as just a bunch of religionists whose nonbelief leads to all kinds of horrible things:

I keep this fact in mind – that my atheism is a leap of faith – because otherwise it’s easy to get cocky. It’s easy to look at acts of terror committed in the names of different gods, debates about the role of women in various churches, unfamiliar and elaborate religious rules and rituals and think, look at these foolish religious folk. It’s easy to view religion as the root of society’s ills.

By the way, click on that link and see if it really says what Oluo says it does. She goes on:

But atheism as a faith is quickly catching up in its embrace of divisive and oppressive attitudes. We have websites dedicated to insulting Islam and Christianity. We have famous atheist thought-leaders spouting misogyny and calling for the profiling of Muslims. As a black atheist, I encounter just as much racism amongst other atheists as anywhere else. We have hundreds of thousands of atheists blindly following atheist leaders like Richard Dawkins, hurling insults and even threats at those who dare question them.

Look through new atheist websites and twitter feeds. You’ll see the same hatred and bigotry that theists have been spouting against other theists for millennia. But when confronted about this bigotry, we say “But I feel this way about all religion,” as if that somehow makes it better. But our belief that we are right while everyone else is wrong; our belief that our atheism is more moral; our belief that others are lost: none of it is original.

I think this is an exaggeration. Of course some atheists are jerks: they have to be, because they’re people, and some people are jerks. And yes, there will be racism and sexism in our ranks. But if you claim, as does Oluo, that it’s just as bad among nonbelievers as among religionists (“the same hatred and bigotry”), you should provide data rather than anecdotes.

Let’s look at the facts: it’s not atheists who are oppressing women in Muslim lands and cutting of the heads of those “apostates”, like Anthony Flew or Edward Feser, who were once atheists but later embraced religion. We don’t call for the death of believers—the “heretics” of atheism. And who is opposing gay rights women’s rights, and issues like universal health care in America? That’s right, it’s the believers, motivated largely by religion and a “just world” view of life (“you get what you deserve”). It’s not atheists who are refusing healthcare for their children because God will heal them. Atheists don’t call for atheism to be preached in public schools, while Christians are constantly fighting to sneak their beliefs into the classroom or football stadium.

Finally, I don’t see atheism as a “moral” stance, or that I’m “more moral” than believers. Rather, it’s a scientific stance: the rejection of gods because there’s no evidence. That doesn’t automatically make you more moral than, say, a Presbyterian.

My thesis is this. In at least one way atheists are better than believers: we are not deluded by superstitious belief in unevidenced deities. That makes us more rational than religionists, and in a very important way. No, that doesn’t necessarily make us better people than believers, but it does make us immune to bad acts based on adherence to religious morality. And it makes us right in the same way that people who don’t believe in Bigfoot or Santa Claus are right.

Oluo goes on:

If we truly want to free ourselves from the racist, sexist, classist, homophobic tendencies of society, we need to go beyond religion. Yes, religion does need to be examined and debated regularly and fervently. But we also need to examine our school systems, our medical systems, our economic systems, our environmental policies.

Agreed! But Oluo should realize that a substantial part of the ills that inflict us—and that includes a “just world” view of economics, an institutionalization of inequality for gays and women, a tolerance of environmental degradation, and the fatalistic notion that we should simply accept our afflictions on Earth because all will be set right in Heaven—does come from religion. So yes, if you’re an anti-theist, and think that faith does palpable harms, one way to fight that faith is to eliminate the conditions that promote it. (That, by the way, is what Marx says, eloquently, in the very link Oluo uses to demonstrate snarky vilification of believers.) But another way is to simply criticize religion itself, for, as has been shown many times over, such criticism has dissolved the faith of many.

Given that Oluo thinks that “religion neds to be examined and debated regularly and fervently,” I remain curious why she ends her piece with the following paragraph:

Faith is not the enemy, and words in a book are not responsible for the atrocities we commit as human beings. We need to constantly examine and expose our nature as pack animals who are constantly trying to define the other in order to feel safe through all of the systems we build in society. Only then will we be as free from dogma as we atheists claim to be.

She’s wrong. Faith is the enemy, and, as Hitchens realized, should be treated with ridicule and contempt, or at least not with praise and approbation. It’s a superstition that motivates a lot of horrible behavior. And a lot of the atrocities that we see do come from “words in a book.” Or does she know that the Qur’an has no influence on what Muslims do?

We can eliminate faith in two ways: by criticizing it directly, hoping to change the minds of believers and the undecided; or by undermining the social conditions that make faith necessary. I can see the usefulness of both strategies, though the former gives results that can be seen more immediately. Nevertheless, I urge all people, not just atheists, to work towards a better world. What I won’t agree with, though, is the claim that atheists are less motivated to build a better world than are believers. I think it’s the opposite, though I can’t prove it. And if you want to convince people to be humanists, don’t yell at them that their atheism perforce entails humanism. It doesn’t. It entails only disbelief in gods. If you want atheists to be humanists, give them reasons to be humanists.

162 thoughts on “Self-abasing atheist at the Guardian calls atheism a “leap of faith”

  1. “But is a similar degree of brutality motivated by a disbelief in gods? I doubt it.”

    History is a fine subject. We can learn about Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, etc…

    1. I mentioned ideology as a cause of brutality, and as for Hitler, do you seriously think that the Nazi brutality was caused by their atheism? You have no idea of the history of Nazism, so you should go learn about the fine subject of history yourself.

      1. No I don’t. But it sure wasn’t slowed down by their atheism. Hitler hated and denied not only Judaism but Christianity. To commit atrocities it very much helps if you do not believe yourself to be accountable to Something higher than yourself.

        It’s amazing, Jerry, that in a post of four sentences–two of which are yours–you are able to discern what I know about the history of Nazism…

        1. The RCC (per Pius XI) entered its concordat with Germany in 1933, shortly after Hitler obtained his dictatorial emergency powers. Under its terms (which have not to this day been revoked) the Catholic clergy in Germany pledged its political allegiance to the Reich and the Reich promised not to confiscate property from, or interfere in internal operations of, the Catholic Church in Germany.

          Hitler died still a member (albeit apparently lapsed) of the Roman Catholic Church. The only one of his henchmen the Church ever deigned to excommunicate was Minister of Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, and then only because he married a Protestant divorcée.

          The foundation of the Holocaust lay in a millennium of European Christian anti-Semitism. In the second half of that millennium, much of it was justified using the teachings and writings of the leader of the Protestant Reformation in Germany, Martin Luther.

          If, as you claim, Hitler “hated” both Judaism and Christianity, he certainly employed much different means for expressing that hatred. You cannot blame Nazi atrocities on atheism.

        2. “I was not in accord with its sharp anti-Semitic tone; but again and again I found that its arguments gave me grounds for serious thought. Anyhow, it was as a result of such reading that I came to know the man and the movement which then determined the fate of Vienna. These were Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Socialist Movement. At the time I came to Vienna I felt opposed to both. I looked on the man and the movement as ‘reactionary’. But even an elementary sense of justice enforced me to change my opinion when I had the opportunity of knowing the man and his work, and slowly that opinion grew into outspoken admiration when I had better grounds for forming a judgment.”

          Wikiquote from Mein Kampf, Chapter 2.

    2. Hitler wasn’t an atheist and certainly the officers, soldiers, and German people who followed his orders weren’t atheists, but what Stalin, Hitler, Mao, and Pol Pot did have in common was totalitarianism — the antithesis of the western Enlightenment values that led directly to the secular democratic political institutions and the scientific progress we have today.

  2. It seems that a number of the commenters (there are now 2200 comments, and comments are closed) think she’s talking nonsense, just as PCC(E) does.

  3. But my conviction that there is no God is nonetheless a leap of faith. Just as we have been unable to prove there is a God, we have also been unable to prove that there isn’t one. The feeling that I have in my being that there is no God is what I go by, but I’m not deluded into thinking that feeling is in any way more factual than the deep conviction by theists that God exists.

    Oh, good lord.

    The gods are, uniformly and by definition, the ultimate in over-the-top larger-than-life characters. They speak with booming voices from the heavens; they send unmistakable signs and portents; they perform mind-blowing impossible miracles. They are all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-present — and it is of utmost importance to them that everybody heed their messages (and messengers).

    They’re not just the elephant in the room; they’re the complete three-ring circus in the room, with a mega-amplified emcee and a band and hawkers selling peanuts and the works.

    But, just as you couldn’t possibly miss a real elephant really in the room with you right now, just as you have absolute confidence that your room really is elephant-free…so, too, would you be unable to overlook a god. And so should you be confident that there aren’t any.

    Unless you’re the type to play childish “gotcha” games (“Maybe the elephant is invisible! Maybe it’s a toy elephant on a keychain hidden in somebody’s pocket! Or, I know — let me scribble a picture of an elephant!”) that have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with actual elephants, you’ve got to be pretty damned idiotic to remain agnostic about the possibility that you might have overlooked an elephant in the room with you.

    Ditto, of course, the gods.

    Cheers,

    b&

    (Still not subbing…. b&)

    1. I enjoyed the way you expressed that!

      Also, Jerry says he doesn’t have evidence that atheists are more likely to be humanists, but it does exist. The work Phil Zuckerman has been doing for some years now consistently demonstrates that likelihood.

          1. Here’s a relevant passage:

            “Survey 2008). Grupp and Newman (1973) and Nassi (1981) have found that irreligiosity
            is strongly and consistently correlated and with liberal, progressive, or left-wing political
            perspectives, and Gay and Ellison (1993) found that — when compared to various
            religious groups — nonreligious Americans are the most politically tolerant, supporting
            the extension of civil liberties to dissident groups.”

    2. My coworker told me his son told him the most powerful beings are Santa and God. My reply was, “Arguably the same person”.

          1. That’s what you get for eating too many. Sorry, you probably need to be a Scot to get that (sair = sore).

  4. “It’s easy to view religion as the root of society’s ills.”

    Of course it is easy, being true. It doesn’t cause anywhere near 100% but possibly half.

    I wonder if Dan Dennett would characterize Oluo as one suffering belief in belief”.

  5. Possibly she gave up on religion too early and needs to go back, have another look. At 6 years old she was able to determine that religion was B.S. yet still was good with Santa and all that. Seems she had this very early shot of wisdom and then nothing more after that.

  6. Atheism is actually honesty with ones self. It is a deeper acceptance of truth. it is not a leap of faith… but the opposite whatever that is – a grounding in acceptance?

    1. Yes. The leap of faith called for by theists is to arrive at a belief despite the absence of evidence. The call is to believe in an omniscient overlord that cannot be seen, heard, or in any way detected. Come join us. We have taken the plunge anyway, and so should you.
      But an atheist steps away from the fog. Seeing no sign that there is anything to leap to, they choose to just keep their feet on the solid ground that they can observe. Is there thunder from the heavens? Does the sky darken? No.

  7. I don’t know if the Grauniad hates atheism. That paper has no opinion, rather it has a dozen. Just as long the clicks come in.

    1. The Guardian’s opinion is what it publishes in its editorials. The opinions in the opinion pieces are those of their authors. I couldn’t disagree that they publish a lot of crappy opinion pieces (though what paper doesn’t?), but the fact that it allows a range of views is a good thing.

  8. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say Oluo is probably referring to Sam Harris, at least in part, with her comments. I watched Kyle Kulinkski’s interview with Sam recently, and Sam takes the gloves off. Frankly, I found it refreshing for him to inject some emotion into his speech and hear that he’s not always the amazingly calm speaker that I’ve seen in most of his appearances. I don’t know whether Aluo falls into the Glen Greewald/He Who Should Not Be Named camp in that she’s intentionally misrepresenting arguments, but one would think that anyone who criticizes New Atheism with the Islamophobia and “atheism is a faith too” tropes is being intentionally obtuse at this point.

    1. I haven’t listened to Sam’s interview yet, but it seems like he’s been spending far too much time defending himself from critics, rather than just presenting his views. IMO, that plays into the hands of the critics. It’s sort of like a “Denial of Service” attack on the internet. If you can make someone spend all their time defending themselves, they don’t have time to attack anyone else.

      1. Agreed. I hate to see Sam getting pulled into personality conflicts. (It’s one of the things that drove me away from the Freethought blogs crowd). No good comes of it.

      2. Sam said about as much himself. He says he’s getting tired of having to defend against the same old accusations. Maybe this interview will end his defensive mode. On the other hand, he gets in a few good licks of his own while defending.

        1. The problem is with Sam’s perceived need to defend himself. He needs to just accept that people will misrepresent him. I don’t see Dawkins fretting nearly as much about what people say about him, nor any of the other prominent atheists.

          It doesn’t really further his purpose to get even with his critics; that’s pure ego and he ought to be above that sort of thing.

        2. Yes, there was some self defense in this interview, but it was mostly Sam simply asserting that this misrepresentations are so egregious that his detractors know they are false. Much of the rest of it was saying just how odious people like Greenwald are. Kyle defended Greenwald some, but didn’t have much to say about the perfectly justified trashing of He Who Shall Not Be Named.

          I think one of my favorite moments of the interview was when Sam brought up body counts and how many people die due to automobile accidents in the United States on a yearly basis. This has long been one of my pet issues-when it comes to both frequency and quantity of death in automobile accidents, we trail Europe just as badly as we do when it comes to gun violence. Day in and day out, 100 people die on our roads, yet our infrastructure and mass transit remains decades behind current technology.

    2. I liked it too. The thing about profiling in Oluo’s piece definitely referred to Harris, or rather to one of the common misrepresentations of his views, spread by the Aslan/Greenwald et al. crew.

    1. We should distinguish between two kinds of beliefs here, rational (evidence-based) and irrational ones (for which there either is no evidence available or we have contrary evidence), so that the expressions to believe, or to have faith in something, don’t become meaningless. A belief in a human-loving and all-powerful creator of the universe – in the face of so much random suffering experienced by humans through no fault of their own – is an entirely irrational faith.

    2. I bet Deepak Chopra could find room in that for some superpositioned states of both believing and not believing in God which causes the matter in the former faith to collide with the antimatter of the latter and voila! Quantum rationality!

  9. It’s trivially true that you can’t prove there is no god, but I don’t get how that is a leap of faith. Is not believing in Bigfoot a leap of faith? He could show up and knuckle your head any time you’re out in the woods, after all. So could a bear, but we know bears are real.

    It’s possible to disprove God’s nonexistence, though. He just needs to show up and perform something that only a god could do.

    1. I suppose it’s true you can’t prove god doesn’t exist, however unlikely. What I think Skepticism does prove, though, is that god’s existence doesn’t make sense.

      1. Pretty much any god anyone actually believes in is either logically inconsistent and, or, inconsistent with physics (with a very high level of confidence).

        Not “disproven”, but falsified as a hypothesis (i.e., shown not to exist) with at least the same confidence as phlogiston, caloric, the luminiferous æther, &c., &c.

        /@

        1. Which is fine if someone is honest enough to make that distinction, but it seems religious apologists rarely bother.

          Philosophically, it’s possible on the same level it’s possible there’s an invisible, inaudible, intangible, undetectable twelve-armed skunk fairy manipulating you with magic puppet strings and a remote control. You wouldn’t waste a second on a possibility that empty and baseless. Yet, they want to present it as if it’s one of the more plausible and respectable hypotheses we have with much to recommend it, as if they were presenting an interpretation of quantum physics that scientists have considered among their most plausible.

          It’s no mystery why they do this, of course; it gives their belief a Trojan horse-like deceptiveness. Their disputants concede possibility in the first (uninteresting) sense, unaware of the hidden second (interesting) sense waiting to ambush them.

          1. Tell me more about this 12-armed skunk fairy. I’m intrigued. Sounds very Kali-esque.

    2. Well, I long ago proved to myself that the omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god of the Xtians does not exist.

      Years ago I defined a set of three events that, if they happened together, would cause me to accept the existence of that god. All of those events are crassly material (so require nothing supernatural to occur), and I have never told anyone what they are (so I am not going to tell you now).

      If this god were omniscient, it would know what these events are; if omnipotent, it could cause them to happen; and if omnibenevolent it would want them to happen (*) – so it would be impossible for these events NOT to happen.

      These events have not happened, therefore I think I am justified in concluding that if the Xtian god does exist it must be lacking in at least one of its supposed attributes.

      (*) Since it would be in my best interests to believe in this god (heaven vs hell, etc.), and an omnibenevolent deity could not act against my best interests; if the greatest possible good (according to the Xtians) is to go to heaven, this would outweigh any other possible considerations.

      Perhaps one could argue for a deity that would let me into heaven regardless of whether or not I believed in it – but that does not seem to be what most Xtians believe.

  10. If only this were the most odious thing I’d read in the Guardian of late.
    Saying that atheism is a belief system in the same manner that Catholicism or Salafism is a belief system is like saying that not eating pig excrement is a dietary choice.

  11. To begin with, the three worst arguments against atheism are:

    1) Atheism involves a faith
    2) Atheism is an inverse fundamentalism
    3) Atheists ought re Hought to be depressed.

    That said, I suppose atheism is a faith if you’re a 7 on the Dawkins scale. But except for Victor Stenger (a professed 8), most public atheists have been careful to limit themselves to 6 or 6 plus a tad. (A short explanation of the Dawkins scale is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability ).

    (Presumably, Anton Levey with his “Church of Satan” brand of atheism is a 6.66 !)

    Now this gal seems to base her atheism on her “sensus non divinitatis” (with slight apologies to Alvin Plantinga), so I suppose in HER case, there’s a slight faith element involved.

    Her argument that we need to work on other sources of human evil besides religion is a good one, but one still needs to focus (some of the time) on how religion is a catalyst for evil. (Her argument echoes that of Chris Hedges in his anti-atheist book.)

    Re Weinberg, I do think that sometimes religion helps bad people do good things, but occasionally at too high a price. An example of an admirable conversion is John Newton who gave up slave trading after his religious conversion (and wrote “Amazing Grace” in wake of same.)

    But in the case of Ben Carson, it is probably true that he gave up his violent temper as a result of getting religion, but there are highly undesirable side-effects here. With slight apologies to conservative Catholic author Anthony Burgess, Carson’s religion has been like the Ludovico technique in Burgess’ novel “A Clockwork Orange”- it may have cured his violence but terrible other things have happened to him apparently as a result.

    (I myself identify as a 7 on the Dawkins scale with regard to the God of Abraham, the Bible, and the classical Christian creeds. I’m about 5.5 on the god of Spinoza, Wolfgang Pauli, and Thomas Paine.)

    1. I’m about 5.5 on the god of Spinoza, Wolfgang Pauli, and Thomas Paine.

      Is that deism? If so, I’m surprised you give it that much credit. Or are you talking about the god=nature or god=universe belief? In which case, it seems peculiar to place it on the disbelief side of the scale.

  12. There is one sense in which I might agree with her.

    When I was struggling with faith many years ago, I was finally able to “cross over” when I rationalized to myself that if a good God existed, he wouldn’t condemn anyone to hell merely because they didn’t believe in him.

    I use that to tease believers that I actually have more faith in their god than they do. 😉

    1. I’ve used that argument too. God made me this way – He will understand. It’s a difficult argument for the representatives of a loving god to counter. 🙂

      1. I suspect this is why so many believers hold the view that atheists “know” deep down that God is real: they (the believers) must realize that if an atheist’s skepticism were actually genuine and sincere, then it would be necessary for a loving god to be forgiving of it. But, if the atheists actually know that God exists but just reject Him out of defiance, then damning them to Hell for eternity is just!

        In other words, when a theist is required to believe 1.) that their god is loving and just rather than arbitrary and capricious, and 2.) that nonbelievers go to Hell; then the only way they can wrap their minds around atheism is to assume that it must be insincere and defiant. The possibility of sincere atheism arrived at through honest skepticism would undo everything.

        1. Yeah, you may be right. Whatever form the belief takes, cognitive dissonance is involved. Otoh, assuming they’re someone who gets nuance, facial expressions etc., (and I wouldn’t use the argument on someone who didn’t) it’ll be pretty clear exactly what I mean.

  13. “Faith is not the enemy, and words in a book are not responsible for the atrocities we commit as human beings.”

    To say that words in a book are not responsible for atrocities has to be one of the most anti-intellectual and ignorant comments I have heard in quite some time. Does she not believe that books influence people to take actions, both good and bad and sometimes both in the same volume? Has she not heard of the bible or Mein Kampf or the Qur’an as Professor Coyne has pointed out? The whole article should be dismissed without a second thought.

    1. Yeah – that statement is one of the stupidest bits of stupidity I’ve ever read. It’s one of those things that if someone said it in a conversation, you’d be left dumbfounded and absolutely speechless, wondering just where to start, and if there was any point. Like discussing physics with a d*g.

      1. “Books don’t kill people; people kill people.”

        Where have we heard something like that before?

        Oh I know — from the NRA (the “National Religious Association”).

    2. woild Europe had been involved in its witch hunts of past centuries if there was no injunction to not suffer them to live? I think she is lying with a straight face

  14. There is far more profit potential in agreeing with Christians and telling Christians what they want to hear. Especially if one presents oneself as an atheist.

  15. I think Oluo is arguing against a straw man. The notion that atheism means feeling certain one knows and can prove gods don’t exist. That would be a leap of faith (of some kind) since the evidence for a godless universe is persuasive, but not complete.

  16. But my conviction that the world wasn’t created last Thursday is nonetheless a leap of faith. Just as we have been unable to prove the world was created last Thursday — with all of our memories of everything before last Thursday being fabrications — we have also been unable to prove that it wasn’t created last Thursday. The feeling that I have in my being that the world existed before last Thursday is what I go by, but I’m not deluded into thinking that feeling is in any way more factual than the deep conviction by others that the world was created last Thursday.

    1. I think you’re stretching the meaning of faith beyond its breaking point here. You do not simply have a strong conviction and belief without evidence that the world existed before last Thursday. All of the evidence indicates that the world existed before last Thursday.

      The logical possibility that it did not exist prior to last Thursday is of course an unprovable assertion. However, we have no evidence that this is the case. To rationally believe this, we’d need some evidence that there is a grand conspiracy in play where some powerful force put us all here with false memories dating back to prior to last Thursday, along with the illusion that all the laws of Physics stretch far back in time. Accepting that the world existed two weeks ago despite the fact that there’s some convoluted conspiracy theory that is logically possible is in no way the same as accepting that the world did exist because every single piece of evidence we have indicates that it did.

      If both these stances are faith, as other posters have pointed out, faith is a useless word.

      1. Also, last Thursday is a pretty arbitrary date to pick. Why not last Wednesday, or New Year’s Day, or the first day of the 20th Century, or a day six million years ago, et cetera? You’ve got 13.56 billion years’ worth of dates to choose from. In fact, logically you’ve got an infinite quantity, since you could always argue that the 13.56 billion years or so was an illusion anyway. Therefore, correctly picking any one date as THE date to raise above all others – in the absence of any reason to do so – tends towards impossibility. A nightmare of faith, I should think. And that’s just to pick the day when it happened, not including the many logically possible ways of how it happened, how long it took, where and when, etc.

        Once you open the door for a mere logical possibility, you can never close it for all the infinite possibilities stampeding through. On sheer practical grounds, faith is a dead-end because any choice in the absence of evidence is doomed to be an arbitrary one.

    2. As others have mentioned, we have to agree on what ‘faith’ means. If you call believing that Earth is as old as it appears to be a leap of faith, then you are defining ‘faith’ as accepting the possible truth of anything that can’t be proven false, or alternatively, accepting as possibly true everything that we can’t know for certain (the solipsist position).

      Such a definition doesn’t seem to be very useful, because it doesn’t allow for making a distinction between religious faith and ‘faith’ based in probability and evidence. Some Christians like this definition because they can say stuff like “it takes more faith to be an atheist than to believe in God” or “Science is based on faith too”.

      I suggest that for things like ‘knowing’ there was an Earth before I was born, it is a matter of being confident rather than having ‘faith.’

      Confidence is based in evidence. Faith is generally belief in something for which there is no evidence.

  17. There is no evidence for gods or the afterlife.

    There is no evidence that any electron is different from another electron.(*)

    Believing in the above statements does not require faith. It is simply reasonable to believe they are correct.

    Could I believe in a god? Yes, if and only if I were god and the evidence for this was convincing enough for me. Strangely, this belief would not require faith, because it would only be believed if I were a god, which would require evidence (sort of a tautology).

    Could I believe that not all electrons were the same? Yes, if there was evidence for it. No faith required.

    (*) – Wheeler argued with QED that the universe might only contain one electron anyhow. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-electron_universe

  18. We need to stop nodding in agreement when someone says that you can’t prove that god doesn’t exist. The use of the word “prove” in that context is simply inconsistent with the ordinary, everyday meaning that all of us (believers and non-believers alike) give to the word “prove.” In every other context, we consider the non-existence of something to have been sufficiently proven when there’s insufficient evidence to establish that it actually does exist. In my lifetime I don’t recall any adult ever telling me that we need to believe in — or at least be open minded about — the existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, Leprechauns or Gremlins. The fact is that the absence of good evidence for the existence of those entities is considered to be such compelling proof of their non-existence that no rational person ever debates that fact. Ever. The non-existence of god has therefore been “proved” to exactly the same extent — such that we should never concede otherwise!

    1. @ JohnE
      Exactly right. When I say that I know there is no god, people freak out and tell me I can’t prove it, so I try to explain it the same way you did. It never works, though.

  19. I think it’s true that most atheists tend to be liberals. I’m wondering though, if the same can still be said about the Guardian.
    At what point does the post-modernist militancy, and the cultural relativism and identity politics that come with it, subsume any and all actual liberal values, rendering the individual a liberal in name only.
    I think most of the editorial staff at the Guardian is now well past that point.

    1. Well to be fair to the Guardian they have, over recent weeks, been publishing some excellent articles on the exploitation of migrant labour (or modern slavery) including in that bastion of human rights, Saudi Arabia

  20. A distinction can perhaps be drawn here between those whose atheism is provisional, based on the empirical observation that there is no reliable evidence for the existence of god(s), and those atheists who maintain that the non-existence of god(s) is affirmatively established (other than, that is, by an abductive inference to the best explanation). The latter can be said to be basing their belief on “faith,” although I’m not sure such atheists actually exist (or, if they do, how numerous they are).

    1. I’m one of those atheists. It’s not faith it’s the refusal to entertain the absurd simply because it can’t be summarily dismissed as a possibility.
      I can’t prove that G-minor doesn’t taste like fried chicken, but that doesn’t mean it’s rational or reasonable to base my worldview on that remote and unverifiable hypothesis.
      To be honest, I think that whole idea that the affirmative denial of the existence of Dieties is faith based is, itself, based on pretentious philosophical minutiae. In order for that to be reasonable, one would have to treat every possible outcome in the universe as though it were probable.

      1. As I alluded in my comment, abductive reasoning leads to the inference that the best explanation for the lack of reliable evidence for the existence of god(s) is that no such deities exist. That’s my view. Such a conclusion must remain ever provisional, although I think the inference is sufficiently strong that, in the absence of new countervailing evidence, it is intellectually perverse to deny it (in the same sense that Gould described the rejection of the evidence establishing biological evolution from a common ancestor as intellectually perverse).

        The specter of “faith” rears its head if nonbelievers claim absolute certainty, ignoring that the inquiry is essentially scientific, and that its conclusions are, perforce, provisional.

        1. You might argue, of course, that the rejection of the god hypothesis is warranted not just by the lack of reliable evidence of deities, but by the claims and descriptions and arguments about many deities being incoherent (which is the case). But, I think, the hypothesis that celestial bodies were borne upon nested crystal spheres was also incoherent. That doesn’t make the rejection of that hypothesis, in favor of the theory of a heliocentric solar system, any less scientific. Nor does the incoherence of various god hypotheses render that inquiry non-scientific.

        2. “intellectually perverse”

          Belief is kinky?

          More seriously: But does faith have an intellectual basis? Intellectual arguments for God, trying to rationalise faith positions, strike me as /ex post facto/.

          /@

        3. Yes, but don’t you think it’s a little odd to regard that conclusion as provisional?
          My sticking point on this issue is that it seems as though belief in a God(s) is the only concept to which this courtesy is extended. We have no more reason to believe that any gods exist than we do to believe that werewolves exist but no one, to my knowledge, qualifies their lack of belief in werewolves as provisional.
          I’m not trying to harp on you or anything, I just feel this is a point worth hashing out.

          1. It’s not unique to the concept of gods. The hypothesis that werewolves exist is also a provisional one, simply because its truthfulness could be confirmed if someone discovered and showed one to us. That doesn’t mean it’s sensible to believe that werewolves exist, of course, which is why no one considers its provisional status as an encouraging sign, even if they concede the logical/philosophical possibility.

            It is, if anything, a pedantic point, since anything that isn’t self-contradictory (or contradicted by evidence) is provisional, however ridiculous. People don’t qualify their lack of belief in werewolves for the simple reason that you don’t need to for day-to-day or scientific talk. It’s a shared assumption, and not a compelling one to point out unless you encounter a potential believer, who will in any case be trying to make a virtue out of a bad position.

            Of course, this confusion between logical/philosophical possibility and day-to-day/scientific possibility is what the believer – and the theists – are relying on to smuggle some credibility into their positions. They try and turn an uninteresting philosophical or logical point into a much more interesting (but false) day-to-day or scientific possibility, which buys them unearned credibility. It’s like saying god is as good a hypothesis of the cosmology of the universe as the Big Bang theory or String theory, simply because it’s an idea and it has its supporters.

            Which is why comparing them with mythical creatures shows how shoddy this line of reasoning is.

          2. I see your point.
            I feel that the provisional nature of the hypothesis is so pedantic as to not warrant consideration. I also completely agree that this distinction is the hole that theists run through when making their arguments.
            I don’t feel obligated to entertain such a pedantic, philosophical point, even though what you said was correct. The overall effect of doing so is, IMO, counter-productive.

          3. I don’t think it’s counter-productive, at least insofar as explaining as clearly as possible what’s wrong or unsound about theism’s arguments is counter-productive. It’s cards on the table, basically. And especially when proponents often go back to philosophical niceties, it can help to meet them on “their” turf from time to time.

            It is depressing, though, to meet a move this dishonest or overconfident.

    2. Doesn’t it also depend on which particular deity is being invoked? A logically contradictory one, like the omnipotent, omnibenevolent, omniscient sort could be ruled out with certainty without requiring faith. Then, you get a deistic god, the existence of which would require the overhauling of nigh-all existing scientific fields and is near enough impossible as to make no odds. Lastly, you get Thor the Thunder God, who still breaks a few scientific fields but whose existence wouldn’t be much harder to prove than the existence of a mortal man who just happened to have advanced technology.

  21. I would modify your religion equivalent to “misguided ideology fervently believed.” It’s the fervent-belief part that “motivates actions just as odious as those motivated by faith,” as was the case with Stalinism and Maoism and Pol Potism (or whatever name we ascribe to the ideology of the Khmer Rouge). But such fervent ideologues are capable of horrible and brutal acts regardless whether a disbelief in god(s) is a tenet of their ideology.

    1. I don’t think it requires the “fervently believed” part. If anything, a better modifier would be “believed to be the main one for our group”. It’s perfectly possible for an ideology to be kept afloat not by fervent believers but by skeptics going along with it simply because they think everyone else is going along with it.

      There’s also a history of people committing atrocious deeds simply because they had one worldview that life gave them and just went along with it. Simply not seeing a particular outgroup as part of a moral circle is enough to entail suffering and death for the same reason seeing a plastic toy as not real is enough to entail damage and breakage. That’s not fervent belief; that’s just casual “common sense”.

      1. Sure, that’s an alternative possibility. But there’s usually a true believer in the woodpile somewhere. Even where a movement is driven by a cynic, the true-believers’ gullibility and fervency enables the atrocities. Takes a true believer (or a world-class sociopath) to strike the match at a heretic’s auto-da-fé.

  22. Ugh, the old “atheism is a form of Faith…”
    Which of course just depends on an equivocal use of the term “Faith.”

    A lot of the pushback against the New Atheists and their critiques of religious faith is to say that New Atheism attacks a straw man of “faith” as “belief without evidence, or in spite of contrary evidence.”

    And that Christianity actually uses “faith” to mean something more like “trust” or a belief formed on evidence (e.g. Biblical “evidence” for Christ’s resurrection).

    But, sorry, this is like the sophisticated theological who argues for a Deistic God on Saturday, and prays to his real Christian God on Sunday. We can see what you are doing!

    Likewise with Christian faith.

    Most people espousing atheism these days promulgate a scientific style approach to holding beliefs – be open to new evidence, revise your beliefs if necessary, and that goes for all our revisable beliefs – atheism as well.

    Where in Christianity is this similar call to true openness to evidence changing their beliefs?

    In Christianity you can only “revise” your beliefs insofar as you hold certain supernatural beliefs as dogma, and you just make those compatible with new evidence; you are not to actually revise any of the foundational beliefs (e.g. belief in Christ, a Good Personal God with an interest in us, etc).

    This is put on particular display whenever there are tragedies. For local tragedies, the local pastor/minister knows is first job is to mitigate the doubts of his flock.

    For big major catastrophes (e.g. the Asian tsunami) you can count on The Pope to show up and pronounce to all Christendom essentially the message “Don’t worry, DESPITE how the evidence looks, God is really there and really does care for us.
    Keep believing that!”

    It’s never “Well, this certainly seems to count as evidence against our belief in a Good God. We should think about revising that belief.” Nope. Unlike most atheists, Religion holds certain beliefs off the table of influence from counter evidence, and this definitely distinguishes the religious “faith” from how atheists promulgate an evidential approach to holding and changing our beliefs.

    1. Sorry, I should have put it:

      In Christianity you can only “revise” your beliefs insofar as you hold certain supernatural beliefs as dogma, and you just make the new evidence compatible with that dogma;….

    2. One of the dozen plus churches I pass daily on my way to and from my office has had the following message on their sign for the past couple of weeks.

      “Don’t worry, God does hear your prayers”

      The clergy must spend a large amount of their time assuring believers that their god does exist because if all they had to go on was evidence the only reasonable conclusions would be, 1) It doesn’t exist, or 2) It is an asshole with respect to humans. If you add what the bible has to say about their god 2 seems to be the clear winner.

    1. What a coincidence! I don’t collect stamps too. Want to see my non-existent collection? I haven’t got the best ones this year.

  23. There’s a type of pragmatic atheism according to Wikipedia:

    “an apatheist is someone who considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to their life.”

    Doesn’t seem much of a leap of faith to me – just like other flavours of atheism.

    1. This so-called pragmatic atheism doesn’t seem pragmatic to me at all. The hypothesized gods who, the claim goes, watch and judge our every move, can answer our prayers, heal our wounds, grant us access to heaven, or consign us to eternal damnation in hell, are by definition relevant to everyone’s life. There’s further nothing pragmatic about rejecting the god hypothesis without understanding what it entails, and what evidence exists to support it.

      1. There *is* something very pragmatic about rejecting a hypothesis which is already contradicted by a well-established body of knowledge about reality (physics). See David Deutsch on the scientific method (_The Fabric of Reality_; ch. 1, iirc).

        /@

        1. How can you say that something is contradicted by a well-established body of knowledge if you don’t even bother to learn anything about what this thing entails?

          1. Well, obviously you can’t. D’uh.

            But if someone is making any set of truth claims about God, then you need only learn about any one of those truth claims and show that is contradicted to falsify *that* God. You don’t have to understand *everything* that that person’s conception of God entails.

            /@

          2. Correct me if I’m wrong, but my understanding is that someone who “considers the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to their life” doesn’t even bother to learn anything about any truth claims about gods.

          3. From Wikipedia:

            “Apatheism (/ˌæpəˈθiːɪzəm/ a portmanteau of apathy and theism/atheism), also known as pragmatic atheism or practical atheism, is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity or deities.”

            Are you sure that an apatheist is really interested in learning about faith claims, and the evidence for them?

          4. Sorry; you’re right. I’d lost the thread of the conversation since I was replying by email.

            My earlier response about pragmatism was in direct response to your assertion – “There’s further nothing pragmatic about rejecting the god hypothesis without understanding what it entails, and what evidence exists to support it.” – not a defence of calling apatheism “pragmatic atheism”.

            /@

        2. And btw, would you for example reject out of hand, say, the string theory which predicts, among other things, extra spacetime dimensions as contradicting “well established body of knowledge,” without even learning about what the theory says, and what evidence there is to support it?

          1. No. But in any case we know that string theory yields the Standard Model, so it’s entirely consistent with physics as she is. (The problem comes because string theory is not the only such proposal.) There’s nothing inherently unphysical about extra dimensions (there’re not really spacetime dimensions, because spacetime is what’s left at current energy levels), because the SM already posits symmetry breaking in extra dimensions as giving rise to the electroweak and strong forces. String theory just adds more.

            /@

          2. “No.”

            Glad to hear that you’re not an Apa-string theorist, who is acting with apathy, disregard, or lack of interest in string theory.

          3. You *could* be a “pragmatic a-string-theorist” though. Since “the laws underlying the physics of everyday life really are completely understood” (Sean Carroll), the correctness of string theory has no bearing on what you do day to day (unless you happen to be, e.g., Sean Carroll).

            /@

          4. It would still be weird to profess an unbelief in a given theory only because it may not have any practical application.

        3. Not just that, but one can actually go their entire life without spending a single thought on the existence of deities, and striving as much as possible to minimize the cognitive failures that lead to faith in general – and have a happier and fulfilling life for it.

    2. Yes, but I consider that a cop-out, because the existence of gods are certainly relevant to anybody who lives in America and whose life is controlled by laws and politicians operating on the basis that such gods exist.

      1. I would argue that what is relevant is the prevalence of faith and the kinds of exploitation it encourages, not the existence of gods.

        In fact, I would go as far as to say that the existence of Allah is completely, utterly irrelevant even for ISIS and other fervent muslim institutions. Faith is the issue. It’s what leads the believers to do what they do.

        1. I think it’s a rather big stretch to say that the existence of Allah is utterly irrelevant to Muslims 🙂

          1. It’s not a recursive loop at all. It’s utterly bizarre to claim that for Muslims “the existence of Allah is completely, utterly irrelevant” as Rodrigo seems to be doing above.

          2. Please. How many muslims or christians do you think actually engage in theological games? What really concerns the vast, vast majority of them is not whether god exists or not: they are concerned about the virgins, seeing grandma again, getting whatever it is they are praying for, from a new Mercedes-Benz to relief from the pain of their child’s terminal cancer.

          3. It is not. The philosophical games inside which the pondering about the existence of deities takes place is only relevant for people that engage in theology – and only during the particular portions of their time that are spent theologising the fantasy. For the remainder of their time, and for everyone else, the existence of gods is completely irrelevant.

            The actual existence of chupacabras is completely irrelevant to the irrational conviction that they exist. Faith takes all the relevance.

      2. You can believe the god inquiry to be meaningless and irrelevant only if you’ve already provisionally concluded on some level that the god(s) of the major religions do not exist. Certainly, if there is some nontrivial possibility of the existence of god who intervenes in human affairs, a god whose favor can be solicited through prayer, one whose satisfaction or displeasure determines our fates in an eternal afterlife, no inquiry could be more crucial.

        The “pragmatic atheism” proffered by DiscoveredJoys is, at bottom, question-begging.

        1. Nope. You seem to assume that believers arrive at their faith – which leads them to do and support the things they do, and is therefore relevant to us all – through the god inquiry. I would argue that not even the most Sophisticated Theologian(TM) does so. And he’ll even admit it.

          1. I wasn’t arguing otherwise. My point was that “pragmatic atheism” entails a rejection (even if only tacit — maybe especially if tacit) of the premises for belief, whether or not believers (or pragmatic atheists) arrive at their beliefs logically (or, indeed, through any ratiocination at all).

          2. But it doesn’t. It doesn’t even get there. Pragmatic atheism, as per the Wikipedia article quoted by the OP of this thread of comments, is defined as apathy, disregard, or lack of interest towards belief or disbelief in a deity or deities.

            It doesn’t entail in a rejection of premises, it simply does not concern itself with them – doesn’t even bother itself to beg a question it can’t see the relevance of.

            There’s a passage from a book I read in high school that comes to mind. I cannot for the life of me remember what book it was, but this passage stuck with me. A missionary tries his best to evangelize a tribe of indians. He translates the best passages of the bible to their language, does his most passionate sermons. When he is done, one of the indian chiefs says to him: “You scratch. And you scratch hard. And you scratch well. But where you scratch, it doesn’t itch.”

      3. I don’t think it is contradictory for someone to consider the question of the existence of gods as neither meaningful nor relevant to their own life – yet also consider that the actions and events arising from other peoples’ belief in gods are a concern.

          1. Because I have no need for it, nor do I think it would work, nor have I seen it work in relatives that have tried it.

            If I needed treatment for a medical condition and I was offered only faith healing then that behaviour becomes relevant to me.

  24. Reblogged this on Nina's Soap Bubble Box and commented:
    Any person claiming to be an atheist who then claims that we are as bad as religious people is a Poe. They are writing to placate the religious.

    In fact, educated is inherently better than ignorant and education is it’s own reward in that you then actually understand the world as it is.

    and not some delusional fantasy where childish control of other adults is somehow considered reasonable.

    https://dykewriter.wordpress.com/2015/10/29/atheism-is-not-faith-based/

  25. “Leap” is a good word for some of us, I think, but a leap of unfaith, a leap away from faith, not a leap of faith. It can be a big step, a dramatic change, to give up religious fantasies.

    1. The word “leap” implies that you go with your reasoning beyond what the available evidence warrants. I can have, for instance, a leap of unfaith in the safety of consuming processed meat, when I’m presented with the relevant evidence.

      Atheists by definition make no leaps of faith or unfaith.

      1. Edit: I can have, for instance, a leap of unfaith in the safety of consuming processed meat, when I’m presented with the relevant evidence, BUT as long as my revised opinion on the subject is justified by the evidence the “leap” is no leap at all.

  26. Personally I don’t count Catholicism as Christian. I was raised in that belief structure and we both know that they simply do their own thing completely apart from the Bible and early historic Christianity. We also know the repugnant role they played in WW11. With that out of the way, I highly recommend Historian Michael Russman’s book, Hitler’s God: The German Dictator’s Belief in Predestination and his Sense of Mission. I will simply quote one thing Hitler said in his famous Table Talk: “The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.” Equating Christianity with the pox shows a hatred of monumental proportion don’t you agree? I never said his hatred of Christianity was equal to that of Judaism. I am not a mind reader. I do know that his hatred of Jews was more multifaceted that simply hating their religion.

    1. Well, this gets the internet prize for goalpost moving: Catholics aren’t Christian! And you cherry-pick the same quote everyone uses to “prove” that Hitler’s deeds were motivated by atheism. Sorry, but there’s ample evidence to the contrary, and, like Diana said, you should read it. Try here, here, here, and here, for instance.

      You have not shown in the slightest that atheism was a prime motivator for Nazism. That is, in fact, not true, and you are not arguing in good faith.

      1. You’re not missing much: none of them were as good as the first two. Why is it so hard to make a good sequel?

      2. Not to mention all the World War interim updates the international community issued — though World Wars 2.5 and 4.1 could’ve done with some additional debugging.

    2. Personally I don’t count Catholicism as Christian.

      Extremely odd thing to say. Quite apart from the heavy veneration of Jesus Christ (and Mary, too) that informs most of their rituals and dogma, one particular ritual is an obvious descendant of the ritual Paul describes in the Epistles.

      “No True Christian” is even older than “No True Scotsman”. Not that other sects of Christianity are any more intellectually sound than Catholicism, which raises the question of why such a proposed reclassification would matter, even if it weren’t in defiance of obvious evidence to the contrary.

      1. The anti-Papist refrain “Catholics aren’t Christians” was common until fairly recently, especially among the more severe strains of Protestantism. Part of it was doctrinal; a bigger part, based on anti-immigrant bias, first against the Irish, later against other predominantly Catholic European immigrants who came through Ellis Island in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

        This bias almost certainly cost Al Smith (the first Catholic major-party nominee) the 1928 presidential election. It’s what drove JFK to make his pilgrimage to Houston during the 1960 campaign to mollify the Baptist ministers by ensuring them there would be no “pipeline to the Vatican” during a Kennedy administration.

        The “Catholics aren’t Christians” trope largely fell into quiescence once Catholic conservatives and the Religious Right made common cause over abortion (and other kulturkampf issues) following the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision in 1973.

        I’m mildly surprised to hear “Patrick” resurrecting it here.

    3. Okay, I’ve heard Catholics not consider Protestants Christians (usually ignorant Catholics) but I have to say, this is the first time I’ve ever heard someone raised as a Catholic say they aren’t Christian. Oh, I really wish my Catholic relatives could read this just so they could be appalled. You realize Catholics do all those Christ-y things right? Like drink his blood and eat his body every Sunday. You’d think they’d be considered Christians because of this.

      1. Of course you are right. The minimum definition of a Christian has to be one who believes Christ to be divine. Definitely fits.

    4. Dude. If anything, catholics are the ORIGINAL christians. The others are just offshoots and plagiarists.

      Jesus Christ.

  27. Today I learned that standing with your feet flat on the ground, exerting no effort in any of the numerous possible directions, can be described as “leaping”.
    In the most trivial and pedantic sense, I suppose a leap of 0m might syntactically be described as a leap, but the semantic content is empty.

Leave a Comment

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *