After the party: what the Yes vote in Ireland means for the Catholic Church and its position on homosexuality

May 27, 2015 • 11:04 am

by Grania Spingies

Quite a lot of headlines around the world announced that Ireland’s voting for equality by endorsing same-sex marriage last week was the dawn of a new era for the position of the Catholic Church in Ireland. The truth of the matter is that it was really just the most recent and most public display of how things have already changed in the country. In spite of a comfortable 87% of the population self-identifying as Catholic and around 90% of Irish citizens having attended a Catholic school for 12 years; the referendum result on the 24th of May was undeniable evidence that the average Irish Catholic pays little to no attention to what the Vatican or its Bishops advise.

In itself, it isn’t really news. Regular church attendance in Ireland is poor (as low as 5% in some areas to 30-40% at best), and getting poorer amongst the younger generations; and has long been a cause for concern amongst Irish priests and bishops. So it is no surprise that whatever does influence the Irish electorate, it probably won’t be the Catholic Church.

In fact, even church-attending Catholics cannot be relied on to listen let alone endorse the official party line. When local parish priests were required to read their Bishop’s letter to their congregation urging them not to support equality for same-sex couples, some of the faithful walked out. One of the attendees said afterwards:

When he started speaking he talked about God and love and I thought it was going in the right direction and that they (the Church) were going to come into the 21st century, but then he read out the letter and I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t in all conscience sit there and listen to it. I never thought I’d be someone that would walk out of Mass but I had to leave. I couldn’t believe we were being told what way to vote. I got into such a temper I couldn’t even stay and listen to it all.

When even the faithful are prepared to publicly shun the Church, it is worth noting. The Archbishop of Ireland, Diarmuid Martin said much the same:

I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.

It appears that as many as a third of Irish Catholic clergy may have also voted Yes in the referendum. The Association of Catholic Priests consists of liberal clergy who frequently butt heads with the traditional Church hierarchy on issues that have long been sticking points in the Church such as celibacy, the ordination of women etc. The Irish talk show radio station NewsTalk surveyed 100 priests to poll their views on this.

http://www.newstalk.com/content/000/images/000097/99713_60_news_hub_multi_630x0.jpg

Clearly, there is certainly no unanimous agreement on the issue.

In spite of promising sounds from the pope last year on the subject of homosexuality, as well as the apparent crisis within the Church’s own ranks – or at least the European parts of it; the Vatican appears to be standing by their position and have called the Irish referendum results a “defeat for humanity”.

The Church never ceases to amaze me as an ex-Catholic, at its dogged insistence of ignoring the concerns and interests of its own people as well as the advances in secular morality in the society in which it exists. But it appears that if there is going to be any change, it is not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Talking may happen. Change is going to be a lot less likely. At least the Vatican can find a small measure of support in the lunatic fringe group Westboro Baptist Church, who would no doubt at least agree in principle with their verdict on the referendum. On the other hand, the Church may not really want support from a group that clearly does not get out much, as this exchange with writer J.K. Rowling demonstrates.

wbc

I would almost pay money to see that, cos that would be awesome ¹.

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

1. Yes, I am using the word awesome, because watching two of the world’s most famousest of wizards take on a grubby band of haters would be, well, thing.

69 thoughts on “After the party: what the Yes vote in Ireland means for the Catholic Church and its position on homosexuality

  1. The Archbishop says “I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.”

    Which I interpret as “Lets redouble our efforts to indoctrinate the next generation.”

    1. I interpret it as “I’m gonna pretend all those parishoners didn’t understand our position, rather than admit that they understand it perfectly well and just reject it.” Irish RCC, its not your messaging that’s the problem. Your messaging is fine. Its the actual message content that’s the problem.

      1. “Why are people so stupid not to understand the catholic teaching are intrinsically disordered and as such don’t have the same rights as the rest of us and something about children and only mentioning gay men” said the bishops spokesman who explains what the bishop actually meant.

      2. That’s a great summary on faith in general. I finished Faith vs. Fact this morning and was checking out the Amazon reviews. So far, only 1 bad review and it was amazing how they brought up implicitly and explicitly many points Jerry demolished in the book. And, of course, they resort to character attacks and accusations that New Atheists fail to view religion as it should be properly understood. Of course, “properly understood,” to them means you agree 100%. Sorry guys, we do understand and we reject the claims.

    2. If there is redoubling it will rebound in a disparaging way for the church.

      The only solution is further reform, which will ultimately make the church a waste of time as every one of its doctrines will be made consistent with secularism and church members will find themselves members of an atheist group that once believed in ghosts.

    3. They probably want to go back to the days when the Bible had to be in Latin and the clergy were the only ones allowed to interpret it. The faithful have obviously failed to understand that “love thy neighbour as yourself” comes with conditions!

  2. One might hope that “what it means” for the Catholic Church is that it’s dead–it just doesn’t know it yet. As we say in México…”muerto pero no enterrado.”

    As for this: “It appears that as many as a third of Irish Catholic clergy may have also voted Yes in the referendum.” Well, it hardly surprises me that many priests would like to see homosexuality destigmatized.

          1. Lack of cognates in other languages, yes, but the pero/perro distinction is one that few students of Spanish ever forget. But I shouldn’t be speaking of perros aqui. This website is only for gatos.

      1. Yes…generally referring to things or people that are on their way out but are still causing trouble because they don’t know that it’s all over for them.

  3. You missed Rowlings’ reply to the Wetboro tw*t. Here it is:

    @WBCsigns Alas, the sheer awesomeness of such a union in such a place would blow your tiny bigoted minds out of your thick sloping skulls.

    — J.K. Rowling (@jk_rowling) May 26, 2015

    Zing!

    1. I find it hilarious that the church thinks the problem is their message “isn’t getting across”. No guys, you’re being heard loud and clear and people are rejecting you *because of* your message.

          1. That was hilarious, when pointed out they tried to claim it was on purpose but showed even more ignorance of Ireland.

      1. Which raises the question: How could you tell the difference between a Côte d’Ivoirian ship in distress and an Irish ship under normal operations (or vice versa)?

        The same applies to ships flying the flags of Monaco or Poland.

        1. Bohemia, too, for that matter. Not that the Bohemian navy is particularly large at this point.

        2. Flying the flag *upside down* (possible with the US flag and – for the observant, at least – the UK flag) doesn’t make any difference to tricolours.

          And it’s difficult to fly any flag *reversed* as the attachments for the hoist are only on the “right” edge (conventionally, the left).

          If you were a ship you’d use your signal flags.

          /@

          1. “conventionally, the left”

            Doesn’t that depend on which way the wind is blowing? 😉

  4. I ask myself, most of these young people who voted yes are products of our Catholic school system for 12 years. I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.

    The Church is doomed. Due to the very nature of religion/spirituality its “message” CAN’T be sensible, reasonable, logical, or progressive. All attempts in that direction lean and eventually lead towards the common ground of secular humanism.

    In order to stand apart, distinct and proud of that distinction, the Catholic Church (as well as all churches, mosques, covens, and spiritual faith groups) have to push a message which is batshit crazy (or as close to it as they can manage.)

    “THIS can never be recognized through the use of worldly wisdom! THIS is special revelation which won’t ever make sense to anyone not in the special group! Believe THIS and you will go down as one of the faithful, scorned by a world which considers you batshit crazy but o boy o boy, will we ever be vindicated in the end, when it turns out that nothing is as it seems! YEE HAW!!!”

    Yeah. Good luck with that, Religion. Let’s see how that cashes out with the rising desire to make our churches and sacred spaces “relevant today.” Take on the humanist challenge. Watch what happens.

    1. Yes! And bejabers to the ‘message of the church’. The message of the people *to* the church appears to be all too clearly ‘f*ck off out of our lives’.

      And thanks Grania for another good summary.

  5. Thank you Grania! Thanks for this analysis.

    We’ve been missing your comments.

    Their has been some talk in US media that there will be some kind of “appeal” to the vote. Something about the No side saying there were balloting irregularities. (I saw none except some minors adding their informal ballots and some Catholic medallions being added to the ballot boxes. 🙂 )

    Can you comment on that?

    Cheers,

      1. Previous referendums have been taken to court afterwards but all have failed to overturn the result as far as I am aware.

        So possibly they are thinking this one will face the same challenge

  6. The Catholic church is between that rock and a hard place. To survive in many places they have to give up 2000 years of no on subjects that the followers already gave up. Birth control, equal rights for women, marriage for everyone and many more. The Catholics would need to join the Unitarians and then see what is left. Otherwise, the Vatican Bank will need to revert to their old ways of corruption, money laundering, and tax haven for the rich, just to get by.

  7. “I’m saying there’s a big challenge there to see how we get across the message of the Church.” Maybe that’s the problem…The church has gotten its message across. And it has been rejected.

    1. It appears to be a genuine Irish flag they had (which is more likely than finding a Cote d’Ivoire flag anyway). Just they were holding it the ‘wrong way round’.

      But who cares, they’re total prats anyway.

  8. The best line about Catholicism and Irish-Catholics (both the diaspora Irish here in the US and those back on the sod) is in Edward Burns’s movie about a Long Island Irish-Catholic family, She’s the One (the follow-up to Burns’s first film, about another Irish-Catholic Long Island family, The Brothers McMullen).

    In the scene, the father of the clan, played by John Mahoney (Frazier‘s dad), says to the older brother (played by Burns, who also wrote and directed) that he’s heard the son had left The Church. The son acknowledges he has, explaining that he doesn’t think he even believes in God anymore. Says the father, with dismissive annoyance: “What’s that got to do with being Catholic?!”

    1. Bwahaha. Good one. *puts movie on the list*

      Best reaction that I’ve read so far about the relationship between Dublin and Rome comes from a commenter on thejournal.ie:

      “i heard their planning on digging up that old wench of a Zealot Mother Teresa and giving her the Frankenstein treatment.
      Desperate times call for desperate measures.”

      Now we’ll wait for Italy…

  9. The cheerful disregard of self identified Catholics for the teachings of the church is rapidly leading to the situation where the hierarchy and the parishioners believe and live by two completely different sets of principles, and church membership is more a matter of social engagement and historical affiliation. Being catholic is looking more and more like being Jewish; mostly atheists going along for the tribal affiliation. I suspect that, as a long term strategy, it’s pretty flawed.

  10. At least the Vatican can find a small measure of support in the lunatic fringe group Westboro Baptist Church,

    With friends like that you really don’t need enemies. Well, more enemies.

    1. They say the enemy of your enemy is your friend. WBC says every other sect is bound for hell so Cathlolics must be their enemy. Atheists are the Church’s enemy so that makes us friends with WBC? Wait, but they already declared us enemies…I suppose this means it’s time to dispense with the enemy of your enemy logic and suggest it for the sophisticated theologians’ bag of tricks.

      1. Apparently it’s a meme that’s been around since antiquity…
        It can lead you to have some pretty dodgy friends.

        I think it was best expressed by Churchill when someone queried his praise for ‘our gallant Russian allies’ – “If Hitler invaded Hell I would at least make a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons”

  11. From the newspaper article:

    “A couple of people walked out during it including some members of the choir.”

    When you’re preaching to the choir and the choir starts walking out you know you’re in trouble!

  12. From the newspaper article:

    ‘A couple of people walked out during it including some members of the choir.’

    When you’re preaching to the choir and the choir starts walking out you know you are in trouble!

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