Mark Vernon at the Guardian: What’s wrong with intelligent design?

May 17, 2011 • 6:35 am

You’re probably familiar with this contretemps, recently described last Friday in the New York Times.  The philosophy journal Synthese published an issue on “Evolution and its rivals,” which, among other pieces, contained an article by philosopher Barbara Forrest criticizing the work of another philosopher, Francis Beckwith.  Forrest rightly called out Beckwith for his sympathies with intelligent design (ID) and his lack of qualifications to pronounce on legal issues.

When the journal came out in print, its editors published a disclaimer, aimed implicitly at Forrest, saying that “some of the papers in this issue employ a tone that may make it hard to distinguish between dispassionate intellectual discussion of other views and disqualification of a targeted author or group.” That, of course, represents the journal caving into to ID sympathizers.

Who were they?  The Times reports that they include Notre Dame theologian Alvin Plantinga, Calvin College philosophy professor Kelly James Clark, and Beckwith himself.  Forrest also suspects prominent IDer William Dembski, who denies (using weasel words) any knowledge of a “campaign.” In the meantime, Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education (NCSE), a co-editor of the special issue, has complained bitterly about the journal’s disclaimer.

Well, people have a right to complain, but academic journals, when publishing pieces, shouldn’t then publish disclaimers criticizing the “tone” of those pieces.  It’s undermining their own mission and their own authors.

Over at the “Comment is free” section of the Guardian, ex-Anglican priest Mark “Holy Rabbit” Vernon, inspired by the Synthese controversy, does his own tone-trolling in a piece called “Too much heat, not enough light in the creationism war.

But American ID battles are powerful catalysts of this near hysterical tone too. Do academics – not least analytical philosophers, who stand or fall on their cool – want to be so readily swept up by it too? Is it not the case that those who stand to gain the most from such rows are not philosophers and scientists, but polemicists who seek to politicise evolution?

Arguably, not just the tone but the content of discussion risks distortion too. Staying with the Synthese row, one element in it concerned whether or not the laws of nature preclude the possibility of miracles. It’s a reasonable question, raising interesting issues about the nature of laws of nature and miracles alike. But against the backdrop of ID, philosophers start citing David Hume as if his treatises were infallible scripture, and start accusing their peers of virtual heresy for allowing even the possibility of a defence of miracles.

I have no desire to defend either Hume or miracles. But is this not tantamount to declaring certain subjects off-limits? Again, it’s the biblicists who stand to win the most. “A man cannot be too careful in the choice of his enemies,” observed Oscar Wilde. You will come to resemble them. For evidence of that, observe the culture wars of the present day.

First of all, Hume did not declare miracles “off-limits”.  As most of us know, Hume said that, to establish a miracle, the evidence in its favor would have to be stronger than the likelihood that those attesting to the miracle were either wrong or duplicitous:

‘That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish….’ When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened. I weigh the one miracle against the other; and according to the superiority, which I discover, I pronounce my decision, and always reject the greater miracle. If the falsehood of his testimony would be more miraculous, than the event which he relates; then, and not till then, can he pretend to command my belief or opinion.

Clearly, Vernon doesn’t understand why the subject of ID brings so much “heat”, nor why those recalcitrant scientists declare miracles “off limits.”

First, not all of us declare miracles “off limits”.  Although some people, including NCSE director Eugenie Scott and Dr.3 Massimo Pigliucci, say that science simply cannot investigate miracles or the supernatural, others—including myself—disagree.  If theism predicts that God interacts with the world in certain ways, then those ways can be tested.  I once argued with Scott that if, say, native Americans perform certain rituals intended to bring rain, one could in principle do a scientific test of whether those rituals actually have the desired effect.  Ditto with the efficacy of prayer.  Now maybe those “miracles” could eventually be shown to have non-goddy causes, but if we rule out duplicity or error along the lines of Hume, I think we could provisionally accept some results as evidence for the supernatural.

But the main reason why scientists like myself reject intelligent design is not because we’re a priori determined to reject the supernatural. It’s because the idea of the supernatural has never been necessary to explain anything in science.  We have not yet found any phenomenon in which the likelihood of God’s intervention is a more reasonable interpretation than our simple ignorance of a naturalistic cause.  Michael Behe, for instance, famously declared that because he could not see any way that the blood-clotting system could have evolved by gradual, stepwise evolution, the existence of that system testified to an Intelligent Designer.  But subsequent analysis showed that Behe was wrong: there were possible evolutionary precursors to this system, and clotting systems missing some parts were nevertheless still functional (see Kenneth Miller’s argument here).

The problem with ID, then, is that it is, as someone once called it, a “science stopper.”  It’s based solely on a failure of imagination—and scientific understanding—that is then written off as evidence for God.  It’s a biochemical god-of-the-gaps gambit.  And this tactic precludes any further scientific work, the kind of work that eventually showed that blood clotting could indeed have evolved in a Darwinian way.  Since there has been no previous evidence for supernatural intervention in either science or the rest of the world, it is more reasonable for scientists to consider a puzzling phenomenon as reflecting our lack of understanding than as evidence for God.

In a critique of intelligent design I wrote for The New Republic, I said this about Behe’s resort to the supernatural:

In view of our progress in understanding biochemical evolution, it is simply irrational to say that because we do not completely understand how biochemical pathways evolved, we should give up trying and invoke the intelligent designer. If the history of science shows us anything, it is that we get nowhere by labeling our ignorance “God.”

Until Mark Vernon understands how biology works, he should stick to his mushbrained apophatic theology.  Need I add that Vernon was a Templeton-Cambridge Journalism fellow (in 2008)?

h/t: Sigmund

66 thoughts on “Mark Vernon at the Guardian: What’s wrong with intelligent design?

  1. It’s because the idea of the supernatural has never been necessary to explain anything in science.

    Well said. And this is precisely what the IDers really want to attack. They simply loath the notion that science can proceed without the invocation of supernatural causes.

  2. What, exactly, is “the supernatural”?

    I’ve yet to encounter a coherent definition of the term.

    If it reduces to “poorly-documented implausible phenomenon not well understood with current theory,” we already have an excellent term for that: paranormal.

    So, what would make something not merely paranormal but “supernatural”?

    Would squaring the circle be considered “supernatural”? If so, why should we even bother wasting our time breathing the word?

    Cheers,

    b&

    1. The supernatural is slightly less super than the superdoopernatural?

      “They say miracles are past, and we haue our Philosophicall persons, to make moderne and familiar things supernaturall and causelesse.”
      All’s Well That Ends Well.

    2. Ben,

      Supernatural entities quite generally involve irreducible essences of something of great human interest, like Mind, Truth, Justice, Love, Skill, or Luck. Those things are invariably high-level phenomena that turn out to presuppose aspects of mind.

      For example, if some purported Love Goddess turns out to make you fall in love by scanning your brain and rewiring your synapses to encode propositions and emotional attitudes toward your beloved, she turns out to just be an alien mind-meddler.

      Suppose, on the other hand, there’s an irreducible essence of Love that she has an irreducible gift for manipulating, because her irreducible essence is intimately related to the irreducible essence of Love. Then she can just make some Love, which is like a substance or energy, and envelop people in it, such that poof they’re In Love.

      Anything that’s understood as reducible to material relations (with no unreduced mind, intentionality, goals, or values) ceases to count as supernatural.

      Basically, supernaturalism presupposes dualism, usually clear substance dualism.

      Pascal Boyer’s Religion Explained is very good on this. Richard Carrier’s good too.

      “Supernatural” is different from paranormal—once you take the dualism out of the supernatural, it ends up merely paranormal.

      Generally, people can only be religiously reverent toward things that are perceived (consciously or unconcsciously) in dualistic, essentialist terms. You can worship a Love Goddess, but it’s much harder to worship a powerful alien date rape enabler who messes with your brain.

      1. “Supernatural” is different from paranormal—once you take the dualism out of the supernatural, it ends up merely paranormal.

        No, I think most claimed paranormal phenomenon (ESP, PK, remote viewing, NDEs, astrology, vitalism, etc) generally include dualistic assumptions. At any rate, from what I’ve seen their believers are almost always dualists (or idealistic monists) and usually use the paranormal to argue that there’s scientific support for a mind-dependent or mind-related cosmic “spirituality.”

      2. “it’s much harder to worship a powerful alien date rape enabler who messes with your brain”

        That was actually the premise for one of the Futurama 4-part episodes.

    3. What do you think of this definition?

      The Supernatural: Non-material, irreducible mental Being, beings, or forces which exist apart from and/or ‘above’ the material realm, do not obey common physical laws, and which affect the natural world through the direct power of intentions or values.

      This definition of ‘supernatural’ would include most things considered ‘paranormal.’ But it would exclude things like the ‘superstrings’ of String Theory.

      1. …and which affect the natural world…

        That’s where it falls down.

        If it interacts with the natural world, we can observe it, measure it, test for it, whatever — at which point it’s indistinguishable from anything else in the natural world.

        Radioactive decay could trivially be posited as supernatural using your definition: how do we know that the “real” reason why atoms decay at a particular moment isn’t because the faeries are playing billiards with them?

        Cheers,

        b&

        1. What distinguishes the so-called supernatural from the natural has nothing to do with testability, but with the nature of the phenomenon itself. Radioactive decay would be supernatural if there was strong, solid scientific evidence indicating that the timing and method of atomic deterioration always has some significant and seemingly irreducible mind-like aspect to it. It decayed at the moment it did because you said you loved it. Or made it love you. Or something along those lines.

          Who says you can’t observe, measure, or test the supernatural? That was only included in the definition when science started making observations, measurements, and tests a heck of a lot more rigorous — and people wanted to protect their superstitions from falsification. In the early days of science — natural philosophy — the common assumption was that they were going to vindicate the truths of religion.

          If it makes it any easier, you could say that “super-natural” was simply a level of the natural world. A “higher” level 😉 People who believe in the supernatural don’t care how it’s labelled, really, as long as they get to keep the content.

        2. I think what distinguishes the supernatural is that it supposedly does not have to obey the laws of action and reaction.

          In the natural world, if A and B interact, the interaction changes the properties of both A and B. But in the dualistic supernatural world, it is possible for “mind” to act on “matter” without any back-reaction. That’s why God can do anything he wants, but we can’t probe him in the laboratory (or anywhere else). For some reason, human minds can only interact with the outside world via material processes (except for psychics, of course), but God is not bound by this restriction.

          Needless to say, the whole scheme is incoherent and unsupported by anything other than wishful thinking.

    4. “Supernatural” predates “paranormal” by a long time — 1520-30 v. 1915-20.

      I’d imagine that “paranormal” was coined to give some credibility to the supernatural as a subject of sober scientific enquiry, rather than the mystical tosh that “supernatural” otherwise implied.

      /@

      1. I have heard the paranormal referred to as “secular supernatural.” Although I think that a contradiction in terms, what they’re trying to get at there is supernatural phenomenon unconnected to specific religious ritual or tradition. ESP, for example, is embedded in virtually every religion in some form or another, but it’s generic enough that it’s not associated with a specific creed. And, as you say, inventing a new word helps make it sound all science-y.

        Paranormal = secular supernatural = “woo.”

  3. I’ve often wondered whether or not the laws of nature preclude the possibility of Yog-Sothoth applying for a home equity loan in suburban Innsmouth. It’s a reasonable question.

    1. This would be easy to test in principle. Find out how many bank mortgage officers have been admitted for psychiatric care because of catatonic states or gibbering, incoherent ramblings and contrast it with data from other parts of the country. The tricky part would be gathering the data while ensuring patient confidentiality.

  4. I like Dawkins’ summary of ID as the Argument from Personal Incredulity – “Because I personally cannot understand how something evolved, it must not have evolved.” This line of “thinking” infects proponents for intelligent design from Behe to, as I have witnessed, introductory biology students. It represents an unrivaled combination of intellectual laziness and arrogance, but is quite consoling to those desperately seeking some “evidence” of the supernatural.

    1. It sure does. I work in pharmacy at the moment and you’d think it to be a scientific field, then I realise that as I discuss my current research into evolution following the Permian-Triassic extinction I am being glared at by a five creationists. There were only six people in the room by the way, me, I’m number six. How on Earth could someone get the whole way through a science degree without once questioning their creationist nonsense?

      1. I hope you laughed in their faces. Any adult who believes in magical creation in this day and age really needs a reality check.

    2. Behe’s “argument from incredulity” goes one step further: it is based not only on his inability to understand how something “irreducibly complex” could evolve, but also on his inability to conjure any alternative explanation aside from design. This is why ID is strictly a criticism of evolution rather than a research program affirmatively supporting the “design hypothesis.” (ID could hardly formulate such a “research program” inasmuch as it aggressively avoids the asking the questions such a program would have to consider, such as who the designer is and when he/she/it did the designing, and especially “how” the designer did it — that is, the mechanism by which the designer acted on the purportedly designed object.) The only affirmative evidence for design that any so-called “ID theorist” has ever proposed was an equation Dembski promised, but never delivered — as was made painfully (for them) clear during the brouhaha over Mathgirl’s recent guest-hosting at Uncommon Descent. It’s no surprise this equation, which was supposed to provide a number distinguishing designed objects from those produced by natural means, was never forthcoming, since ID’s only knowledge base regarding designed objects comes by analogy to objects designed by humans. Furthermore, under their own theory, no control group of purely natural objects is available for comparison, since (according to many in the ID camp) the entire universe and everything in it is designed. Because ID is solely a criticism of existing evolutionary theory rather than an affirmative demonstration of design, the arguments they put forward would equally support any alternative to evolution, natural or supernatural, including my (just made up) theories of “natural multi-step selection” or “natural non-random variation.”

  5. *It’s because the idea of the supernatural has never been necessary to explain anything in science.*

    I’m rather fond of Tim Minchin’s phrasing on that. “…because every mystery ever solved has turned out to be…not magic!”

    1. Sure, but the reason that we’ve solved the mysteries we have, is that they’re not magic! The remaining mysteries are still mysteries because the are magic!

  6. Have to complain on one point.
    The supernatural is not subject to science for the pure reason that to subject something to testing makes it a priori natural, and that which is natural cannot be supernatural. The supernatural is by definition immune to scrutiny. (which probably means it doesn’t exist, and definitely means that it doesn’t matter)

    1. You wouldn’t be “complaining” if you’d followed the discussion we’ve had on this website. I, for one, don’t see any real distinction between “natural” and “supernatural”. If God has effects on the world that can be seen, then in a scientific sense they are natural phenomena. I agree with Russell Blackford on this. You can’t evade this issue by definition alone.

      1. Some paper titles I’d like to see:

        Go(o)d to the Last Drop? The Chemistry of Transubstantiation; a Critical Reappraisal

        Getting Your Feet Wet; Surface Tension Constraints on Bipedal Locomotion on Liquid Water Substrates

        Keeping Your Feet Dry; an Oceanographic and Fluid Dynamic Overview of the Parting of the Red Sea

        The Aerodynamics of Equine Flight; Yeah or Neigh?

        1. Don’t forget the ever popular:

          How to Make Your Zombie Happy; Traumatic Body Opening Constraints on Intestinal Fondling.

      2. Jerry wrote:

        I, for one, don’t see any real distinction between “natural” and “supernatural”.

        It seems that there are two ways of dealing with this issue from the gnu perspective (science and religion in conflict.)

        1.) Deny any distinction between the ‘supernatural’ and what’s natural and say that science tests and deals with ALL of nature. No special rules for supernatural claims.

        2.) Distinguish between the content of ‘supernatural’ and ‘natural’ categories but say that science tests REALITY. No special rules for supernatural claims.

        Either way works — though one can argue for a preference. Both stances are more or less saying the same thing, and they both wind up in the same place. A scientific approach will give us no good reason to believe in the supernatural — and it is this approach we should be taking.

        1. “Supernatural” seems to be rather like “alternative medicine”.

          What do you call alternative medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine. (h/t Tim Minchin)

          Thus: What do you call supernatural phenomena that have been scientifically explained? Natural phenomena.

          Hmm… that doesn’t quite have the same ring to it…

          /@

          1. Look at it this way: IF some particularly strange form of alternative medicine (such as reiki or homeopathy) were found to work — and this was confirmed by the most stringent and skeptical scientific testing — then which option would be more honest:

            1.) skeptics admitting they were wrong, and revising scientific models so that vitalism-driven ‘alternative medicine’ is now one of the valid forms of medicine.

            2.) skeptics insisting that no, alternative medicine still doesn’t work at all, it can’t work — because we now know reiki and homeopathy were never really alternative.

            That second version just seems like goal-shifting to me. Supernatural claims — like alt med woo — are so radically different from our current picture of the world that the changes they’d make if scientifically validated would seem to merit an admission of the category itself.

          2. The point is that if it has an actual function, we can’t keep saying “ooo, mystery-wystery!”

            Aspirin isn’t magic, even though it came from a tree.

      3. “If God has effects on the world that can be seen, then in a scientific sense they are natural phenomena. I agree with Russell Blackford on this.”

        Excuse me, but this looks an awful lot like exactly what Derek said. And yet it looks like it’s meant to disagree with what Derek said. What have I confused?

    2. Derek, there’s a paper by Yonatan Fishman of Albert Einstein College of Medicine, “Can science test supernatural worldviews?” at http://www.naturalism.org/Can%20Science%20Test%20Supernatural%20Worldviews-%20Final%20Author%27s%20Copy%20%28Fishman%202007%29.pdf
      Agreeing with Jerry, Russell, myself and others, he says yes. Here’s the abstract:

      Several prominent scientists, philosophers, and scientific institutions have argued that science cannot test supernatural worldviews on the grounds that (1) science presupposes a naturalistic worldview (Naturalism) or that (2) claims involving supernatural phenomena are inherently beyond the scope of scientific investigation. The present paper argues that these assumptions are questionable and that indeed science can test supernatural claims. While scientific evidence may ultimately support a naturalistic worldview, science does not presuppose Naturalism as an a priori commitment, and supernatural claims are amenable to scientific evaluation. This conclusion challenges the rationale behind a recent judicial ruling in the United States concerning the teaching of “Intelligent Design” in public schools as an alternative to evolution and the official statements of two major scientific institutions that exert a substantial influence on science educational policies in the United States. Given that science does have implications concerning the probable truth of supernatural worldviews, claims should not be excluded a priori from science education simply because they might be characterized as supernatural, paranormal, or religious. Rather, claims should be excluded from science education when the evidence does not support them, regardless of whether they are designated as ‘natural’ or ‘supernatural’.

      More on this at http://www.naturalism.org/science.htm

      1. “Rather, claims should be excluded from science education when the evidence does not support them, regardless of whether they are designated as ‘natural’ or ‘supernatural’.”

        Actually, they could be included in science education as examples of failed hypotheses – very instructive!

    3. What in subjecting a phenomena to observation and testing requires it to be “a priori natural?” I don’t see how that follows.

      “The supernatural is by definition immune to scrutiny.” Again, says who? Where are you getting your definitions from? Why should anyone accept this caveat as part of what defines the supernatural?

    4. The complaint back would be, why do we have to listen to your theological claims on science? It is simple enough to show that it has nothing to do with nature (as if theology ever has): prayer studies.

  7. It’s not that certain questions are off-limits, it’s that once a question has been answered satisfactorily, there is no need to ask it again unless you have new information that casts doubt on the earlier answer.

    1. And, we see time and time again, that new (or previously ignored) information does cast doubt on well-established theories, which in turn leads to exciting new discoveries.

      Mercury’s orbit couldn’t quite be calculated using Kepler’s and Newton’s math, which in turn prompted Einstein to expand our horizons. Van Leeuwenhoek discovered a zoo in his mouth, and Pasteur realized that it was the zoo, not demons, that caused disease. Darwin figured out that the heritability of traits drives speciation; Mendel discovered that those traits are quantifiable and calculable; and Watson, Crick, Franklin, and Gosling nailed down the molecular basis for inheritance.

      ID proponents start at the same place — ignorance — and take the same first step: pointing at the holes and dark corners in our knowledge. Where they go off the rails is by tossing their blankies over the holes and stuffing them in the corners while the rest of us are trying to shine flashlights on them to see what’s really there. And, when we see that there’s nothing in there that’ll bite us (hard), they start kicking and screaming at us that we’ll let the monster out if we reach in there. And they practically shit themselves in terror when we pull out the cute (but poisonous) little bug we found, pop it in the killing jar, and dissect it in the glovebox.

      Cheers,

      b&

  8. Although some people, including NCSE director Eugenie Scott and Dr.3 Massimo Pigliucci, say that science simply cannot investigate miracles or the supernatural, others—including myself—disagree. If theism predicts that God interacts with the world in certain ways, then those ways can be tested.

    If God interacts in a way that can be tested, we would surely consider that natural rather than supernatural. One of the mistakes of religion has been to tie itself to supernaturalism.

    On another point, I don’t reject ID. I only reject its claims that it is scientific. I have no problem discussing it as an interesting philosophical hypothesis. Having alternative theses, such as ID, can sharpen our scientific outlook by helping to make us more keenly aware of how we are using evidence in our science.

  9. Stenger sounded off on the supernatural.Science can investigate miracles,and supernatural claims.Its just not likely,nor has produced any evidence when examined by science.He quoted a philosopher of science who stated that the Dover decision was deeply flawed when the judge declared id not science.It is(in all likelihood-wrong).However-science must remain eternally agnostic,while still drawing reasonable conclusions.new evidence could come in

    1. “He quoted a philosopher of science who stated that the Dover decision was deeply flawed when the judge declared id not science.”

      Not sure I’ve fully parsed your comment, but the simple fact of the matter is that ID is not science.

      As Ben Goren says above, ID has the same first two steps as science (1. Ignorance; 2. Point at Gaps) but then goes off the rails by lying about what we do actually know, and by asserting without evidence, plausible method or coherent definition that “The Designer” did it (cough*god*cough).

      This is one of the fundamental problems with ID: it’s not the questions they raise, and it’s not really the conclusions they claim to reach – it’s the method: equal parts wishful thinking, bullshit and lies.

    2. Science “must” nothing, it either works or it doesn’t.

      We can study astrology (light speed problem), christianity (prayer response problem), et cetera. We can also study physicalism (nature is all there is).

      Where is the problem with any of that?

    3. You appear to have a faulty spacebar on your computer; it’s not working after you’ve typed a punctuation mark. Or (spookily) before you type a left paren.

      😉

      /@

  10. As I think I’ve pointed out before, the whole battle between science and superstition is of superstition’s making. Here we have this enormous mass of people (“believers” they are usually called) who, when confronted with reproducible, empirical evidence that their beliefs are in part (or in whole) incompatible with that evidence, react like infants with tantrums and thumb sucking.

    Clearly, they never ran across Oliver Cromwell’s famous line “I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken.”

    Evidently it’s very easy to brainwash people into believing sheer nonsense, especially if you catch them young.

  11. Wait a second!
    I thought Rob Knopp had solved the problem of miracles for us, hasn’t he?
    Miracles can occur – but only Christian miracles and only rarely and a long time ago, before the invention of scientific measuring apparatus!
    I can’t spot a flaw in his argument! I wonder how Hume missed it!
    The typical accomodationist response to these sorts of arguments has been to go along with this sort of sectarian apologetics – to say “no, science cannot speak about things like the resurrection.”
    Preposterous. Of course science can speak about the resurrection. It can say this: “the resurrection of Jesus is a hypothesis that has zero evidence in its favor and until such time as evidence is provided that supports this hypothesis then the prudent approach is to assign it an extremely small probability of being true, the same as we do to other mythological stories of a similar type”

  12. Staying with the Synthese row, one element in it concerned whether or not the laws of nature preclude the possibility of miracles.

    That’s kind of a weird question. Even if the laws of nature preclude the possibility of miracles, the possibility of miracles still aren’t precluded. (I haven’t looked, but one suspects that Mr. Vernon got the question wrong.)

    1. The real question is, do the laws miracles preclude the possibility of miracles. And in that question, you will find the answer my friend.

      /deep pretend philosopher mode

  13. Although some people, including NCSE director Eugenie Scott and Dr.3 Massimo Pigliucci, say that science simply cannot investigate miracles or the supernatural

    They’re right in this. Through science you could never establish that something supernatural went on. That’s not to say that claims of the miraculous cannot be investigated, just that concluding supernatural is something that cannot be concluded. We just don’t have the capacity to conclude that something is supernatural – it’s beyond our epistemic limits.

    1. that’s not to say that claims of the miraculous cannot be investigated, just that concluding supernatural is something that cannot be concluded.

      But if miracles are partly defined as supernatural, then this means they can’t really be investigated, as miracles. Which is not to say that I think there’s “something going on” when it comes to the possibility of miracles. However, you seem to think they could be real, just in a non-epistemological, non-scientific sense. Which doesn’t add up for me, I’m afraid.

      The more I think about it, the more I realize that major scientific advances could be seen in terms of our understanding what certain phenomena really are, usually in terms of other phenomena with which we are familiar. For example, we learn that iron really is the element whose atoms have 26 protons.

      I could imagine our discovering an extraterrestrial civilization harboring extraordinary technology with which aliens have been manipulating things on Earth. We could then learn what miracles really are, which would be very far from determining that they don’t exist!

      Of course, many theists would, upon such a dramatic discovery, insist that since the cause was alien tech, the events in question weren’t really miracles. But this would be like insisting that if a condition is caused by microbes and not demons, then it’s not a disease. By this line of rhetoric, miracles (and perhaps the supernatural as a whole, I don’t know) become a “jam yesterday and jam tomorrow” phenomenon. Miraclles happened yesterday, but if you break them down into constituent mechanisms, supposedly you are no longer dealing with miracles.

      1. “but if you break them down into constituent mechanisms”

        Seems like this starts with a baseless assumption, ie, that you have the ability to comprehend all things. Or that you ever will. Any proof of this?

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