Atheist-bashing roundup

December 29, 2013 • 11:22 am

‘Tis the Christmas season, which means that it’s time for atheists to lecture other atheists on how we should be softer on religion. One might call it “The War on Atheism.” The sad thing is that both sides in this fracas are atheists, with one telling the other that They’re Doing it Rong.

Over at the Guardian, columnist Suzanne Moore joins the trend with her piece “Why non-believers need rituals too” (subtitle: “To move many away from religion, atheism has to weave itself into the social fabric and shed its image of dour grumpiness”). The article was apparently written for New Humanist and then republished.

Needless to say, Moore is an atheist. And she makes the remarkably obtuse claim that atheists must adopt religious-like rituals to shed our public image as joyless automatons.

One of the problems I have with the New Atheism is that it fixates on ethics, ignoring aesthetics at its peril. It tends also towards atomisation, relying on abstracts such as “civic law” to conjure a collective experience. But I love ritual, because it is through ritual that we remake and strengthen our social bonds.

. . . When it came to making a ceremony, I really did not want the austerity of some humanist events I have attended, where I feel the sensual world is rejected. This is what I mean about aesthetics. Do we cede them to the religious and just look like a bunch of Calvinists? I found myself turning to flowers, flames and incense. Is there anything more beautiful than the offerings made all over the world, of tiny flames and blossom on leaves floating on water?

How many of you have participated in humanistic funerals or weddings? I know from readers’ comments that they are many.  The ceremonies I’ve attended include recitations, poems, songs, sundry celebration, and, of course, noms.  So much for austerity!

I agree with Moore that ceremonies and formal celebrations are inherent in humanity, for they help us mark the big transitions in our lives: marriage, birth, death, and special birthdays (the latter are not really transitions, but arbitrary points in time). Atheists do all these things in a secular way. On my 60th birthday, there was a lovely party, with tons of food, friends, and good wine, and I was given a lovely a book containing letters and comments from absent friends. Those absentees included Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, and Steve Pinker—atheists who supposedly ignore “aesthetics.” Some Calvinists!

What we don’t need are weekly supplications to a divine being. And I, personally, don’t need no stinking incense. Further, something within me quails at the trend toward weekly secular services, including songs and recitations of Darwin. Do we really need those? Do any readers participate in atheist churches and actually think they’re useful? I suspect most of us would avoid them like the plague. To each their own, but Moore doesn’t speak for me.

And in her drive to decry the so-called “coldness” of atheism, Moore compares us to—wait for it—the faithful (my emphasis):

Already, I am revealing a kind of neo-paganism that hardcore rationalist will find unacceptable. But they find most human things unacceptable. For me, not believing in God does not mean one has to forgo poetry, magic, the chaos of ritual, the remaking of shared bonds. I fear ultra-orthodox atheism has come to resemble a rigid and patriarchal faith itself.

This is what the Germans call Wahnsinn. For those rigid and patriarchal faiths are precisely the ones that most rely on poetry, incense, wafers, candles, wine, and group prayer.  (You won’t find that stuff at a Quaker meeting.) What is more ritualistic than Eastern Orthodox ceremonies?

Once again we see an atheist decrying other atheists for being too much like believers, but in this case the accusation is ludicrous. And really, we forgo poetry and magic and bonding? What about Dawkins’s The Magic of Reality? I would bet that most of us know more poetry than the average believer. What we don’t do is believe poetry that peddles delusions.

. . . What, then, makes ceremony powerful? It is the recognition of common humanity; and it is very hard to do this without borrowing from traditional symbols. We need to create a space outside of everyday life to do this.

. . . In saying this I realise I am not a good atheist. Rather like mothering, perhaps I can only be a good enough one. But to move many away from religion, a viable atheism has to weave itself into the social fabric and shed this image of dour grumpiness. What can be richer than the celebration of our common humanity?

Frankly, I’m tired of people like Moore extrapolating from her own personal needs as an atheist to instruct the rest of us to be more like her.  I am happy to attend a secular wedding, and I don’t need candles or incense. Being with friends who are joining in matrimony is sufficient. Yes, humans need ceremonies, but do we really need to borrow their elements from religion?

As for the “dour grumpiness” of atheists, that is a fiction concocted by the religious and perpetuated by faitheists like Moore. In fact, some atheists go out of our way to assure others that we’re really a happy and well-adjusted group (think “The Friendly Atheist”). I find that a bit unseemly. Let others learn on their own that we are generally a well-adjusted and amiable group, attuned even more keenly to the pleasures of life because we know that this life is all we have. Do we really have to add, “Look, I’m a normal person”?

So, Ms. Moore, by all means enjoy your floating flowers and incense, but don’t try to tell the rest of us what we need. As for trying to convince the faithful that we’re not a bunch of miserable nihilists, I find such activity beneath us. Let us first convince the faithful that they’re wasting their lives in pursuit of a delusion, and perhaps then they will accept us as fully human.

***

Over at The Daily Beast, writer Michael Schulson—apparently a nonbeliever—condemns Peter Boghossian’s new book, A Manual for Creating Atheists, for being just as dogmatic as fundamentalist Christianity (is this refrain becoming familiar?). A few snippets:

The loose ensemble known as the “New Atheists” have always had a weirdly evangelical streak, with their emphasis on faith as the essence of religious practice, and with their implication that the entire world would be better off if everyone would start thinking exactly as they do.

What a boring place the world would be if everyone thought alike! Without arguments, there would be no way to approach the truth. But the arguments must be rational ones. Still, I think the entire world would be better if nobody based their opinions on unevidenced and transcendent beings. Evangelicals, on the other hand, believe precisely the opposite.

. . . But Boghossian is hardly an isolated voice. His book has endorsements from a number of prominent atheists, including Shermer, Richard Dawkins, and the University of Chicago biology professor Jerry Coyne. “Since atheism is truly Good News, it should not be hidden under a bushel,” writes Dan Barker, co-president of the Freedom From Religion Foundation, in his endorsement of Boghossian’s book. For this small but high-profile representatives of activist atheism, the word of no God is a new gospel—one that’s eager to condemn those who don’t embrace its message.

I am glad to find myself in good company!  Once again we have an invidious comparison between New Atheism and religious gospel.  Thick-headed writers like Schulson, however, simply can’t fathom that being passionate about reason is different from being dogmatic about delusion. They think that using the word “gospel” is sufficient to dismiss atheism. Deeply subtle questions like “what are they trying to say?” and “what is the evidence?” escape people like Schulson. For him, and other lazy atheist-bashers, it’s always about tone.

. . .As a result, we can see in the writing of Dawkins and Sam Harris, and certainly in A Manual for Creating Atheists, a disdain for the whole idea of a pluralistic society—a disdain, tellingly, that they share with conservative evangelicals.

Yes, I happen to think, along with other atheists, that the world would be better off if religion were gone, or at least those theistic religions that can’t keep their beliefs to themselves, but want to impose them on the rest of us through law and morality. As for pluralism of culture, food, politics, and so on—bring it on!. But I have no respect for pluralism of beliefs if that includes irrational belief.

. . . Movements don’t radicalize when they start having crazy ideas. Movements radicalize when their members become unable to have ordinary interactions with people different from themselves. We need strong, persuasive secular voices, who can explain the power and advantages of non-belief, and draw intelligent comparisons between their own ways of seeing the world and the ways of faith.

As far as I know, Dawkins and others have plenty of ordinary interactions with people different from themselves. Didn’t Richard have regular discourse with the Archbishop of Canterbury, for crying out loud? And New Atheists regularly reach others—not only the choir but the faithful and the doubters—through their writings.  In fact, unlike Schulson, the New Atheists are strong secular voices, and have been enormously successful. That’s why they’re so often attacked by either believers or jealous unbelievers like R. Joseph Hoffmann.

****

In another festive pieces of atheist-bashing (read this one only if your digestion is quite sound), the website Catholic Stand is asking “Is atheist Richard Dawkins being sufficiently responsible in his statements?” (The answer, of course, is “no.”) He calls Richard “Dawk,” which should tell you all you need to know.

134 thoughts on “Atheist-bashing roundup

  1. I think this bashing of atheists by atheists is not only a need to express “you’re not like me therefore you’re broken” (usually the reaction of those who are insecure) but also just another way of expressing “the truth lies somewhere in the middle” with a nice dash of tu quoque. It appears to be endemic in Western countries like it’s a way to push from conformity.

    Further this ceremony need – I honestly don’t like them at all. I’d rather just hole up by myself after a long week of work which is often considered being broken by many others (happily I work with a legion of freaks just like me).

    1. I suspect that people have differing personalities, part inherited, part learned. Some people relish a sense of community, some relish experience and ritual, some a sense of transcendence and some rationality.

      You don’t need a religion to fulfill any of these ‘yearnings’ (especially rationality) but religions offer a ready made solution for those who seek it. It’s the easy option for many. Yet there are hermits who shun society, meditators that seek godless transcendence, and a cluster of related outlooks that follow spiritual naturalism (see spiritualnaturalistsociety.org for an example).

      I don’t regard people with these yearnings as ‘broken’ – but I do think that religion (sometimes) perverts the yearnings into something toxic.

    2. definition from Wikipedia:
      Tu quoque (Latin for “you, too” or “you, also”)
      is the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent’s position by asserting the opponent’s failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone’s point of view based on criticism of the person’s inconsistency and not the position presented whereas a person’s inconsistency should not discredit the position. Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument. To clarify, although the person being attacked might indeed be acting inconsistently or hypocritically, this does not invalidate their argument.

    3. I hate ceremony. Guess I *am* a dour grump. But most of the dour grumps I know are Christian, just by statistics. Takes all kinds, and I wish atheists (and everyone else) would quit telling me how I *should* be.

    4. Being pro/anti ceremony depends largely on what you get from it. I’ve never been to a religious ceremony that I couldn’t escape soon enough, even weddings of close friends and family. However, my best friend and I played golf nearly every Sunday for the better part of twenty years before his death two years ago. Neither of us played particularly well, but it didn’t matter, it was the companionship that we experienced and shared with others that kept us going.

      If this is what is meant by a ritual, then I’m all for it and I hope everyone can have what I had for many years.

      1. I think that would more be classified as a routine. I see rituals as including formalized ceremonies.

        I think personality has a lot to play into it as well. I tend to think “so what” for anything for myself and don’t find celebrating it worthwhile – so what, I lived another year, so what I graduated, do lots of people. Maybe I just have really too much perspective which ends up in meh. I usually make a bigger deal when things happen to other people.

        1. I can go along with weekly golf being routine instead of ritual but it’s as close as I’ve been to what people claim is a spiritual experience. It’s something we enjoyed and it made us feel good, which is what I assume people mean when they say we need rituals, but I could be wrong.
          I’m sure it has a lot to do with my personality and how I was raised because I’m the kind of person who’ll celebrate almost anything, even if I have to make something up, just to gather with friends and family for a good time.

        2. I think personality has a lot to play into it as well. I tend to think “so what” for anything for myself and don’t find celebrating it worthwhile – so what, I lived another year, so what I graduated, do lots of people. Maybe I just have really too much perspective which ends up in meh. I usually make a bigger deal when things happen to other people.

          I SO could have written that!

          (I even tended to downplay most “milestones” for my kids, though now that they’re earning degrees I’m definitely expressing my pride in them…)

          1. Curmudgeonly or not, please keep posting. You, Ben, Sastra and of course our host Professor Ceiling Cat are more often than not, the highlight of my day.

        3. My browser says a ritual is a “religious or solemn ceremony consisting of a series of actions performed according to a prescribed order”.

          The religious part is self evident. The rest of the definition strikes me as being rather broad and would include me making plank-grilled salmon, a task I take most solemnly and try not to vary for fear of disturbing the ancestors. I mean the dinner guests.

          1. But (I neglected to include) this definition significantly doesn’t include the concept of routine. No periodicity need be involved. So if I was following that grilled salmon recipe only on rare occasions, it could still be considered ritual, as long as I didn’t crack any jokes in the process.

          2. I also encompasses my heroic acts of changing toilet paper orientation. Hmmmmm maybe I should start wearing a solemn robe when I do that now.

  2. Our public image as “joyless automatons” is fostered by people who want to stigmatize us, it’s not something that has any basis in reality.

    Therefore, we should just continue to be who we are, and let the chips fall where they may. L

  3. I don’t know how accurate this idea is, but supposedly an important tool for building community is …gossip. Which, interestingly enough, Paul (of Tarsus) claimed was punishable with “eternal” damnation.

    I’m not buying this “ritual builds community” claim.

    1. “I’m not buying this “ritual builds community” claim.”

      I agree, rituals, just like glittering uniforms and pointed hats, are a form of intimidation and subjugation.

      1. They are certainly a method of conformity. I suspect, the less you are comfortable with conformity, the more you are likely to see them as sinister. I tend more towards your view.

    2. This is a classic in anthropology.
      From Aronson & Mills 1959 (“The effect of severity of initiation on liking for a group.” Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology 59(2): 177–181) to [Kamau 2012](http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/00207594.2012.663957) (“What does being initiated severely into a group do? The role of rewards.”), the standard view is that rites strengthen group identity, conformity and the sense of affiliation.

      I don’t quite buy it at face value, and the explanatory model seems contrived. But there it is.

      1. Actually, hazing is one of the textbook examples of cognitive dissonance in practice. You have to go through hell to join the group. You wouldn’t do that unless it was really worth it. Therefore, the group is worth going through hell for. Admitting that the group isn’t worth going through hell for would mean admitting that you’ve been had, and you’re not the type of person who can be had so easily.

        That direct level of analysis, of course, is obfuscated by many additional levels of self-deception — tradition, character-building, learning to trust, and so on.

        But the effectiveness of hazing as an induction ritual is supremely well demonstrated, and I’m not aware of anything other than Cognitive Dissonance Theory that even begins to explain it.

        Cheers,

        b&

  4. Isn’t there a bucket-load of irony in the assertion that atheists need to be more like one group of religionists or they end up looking like another group of religionists?

  5. I do wonder if the need for a ritual comes from those who grew up with one. Having never had any sunday morning routine more pressing than making coffee and reading the paper I don’t feel any need (or indeed inclination) to participate in any sort of ritual (I actually find the idea pretty revolting). However habits one is raised with could be hard to break. Talking of ritual – I’m back to watching the Titans make Houston look competent.

    1. There might be a correlation, but I doubt it’s a strong one. Coming from a background of regular church attendance, I loathe everything about it, except for a few bits of the music.

      I’m always relieved when I attend a wedding and it’s a secular service. They always seem more relaxed, free form and fun that way. They also seem to focus on the couple, rather than the church or (God help us, he said ironically)the officiant.

      1. Same here, and I don’t miss the music at all. All I remember of a chilhood of regular church attendance is the utter boredom of having to sit through mass every Sunday, and how happy I was whenever there was a F1 Grand Prix on TV that day: our priest would rush through mass, even skipping parts, so as to able to watch the start…

        What of course really irked me was the fact that my parents never went to mass, except for the occasional wedding or funeral, but somehow (as too often is the case) they believed it somehow did us kids good to go. Not doing the same mistake with the next generation, needless to say.

        1. My parents would also send us kids, but seldom went themselves. I suspect they just wanted a couple of hours of quiet. Maybe it was the same in your house?

      2. I sang at a catholic wedding yesterday. It was pretty dull, without us singing (a paid choir brought in from elsewhere) it would have been even duller. In Australia about 9% of the population regularly goes to church. I think this proves that most people don’t feel the need of this sort of ritual in their lives.

    2. I grew up without religion, attended church only when visiting relatives, and therefore don’t miss what I never had. Like you, I don’t feel as if I have some deep-seated need to participate in ritual.

      There may be some validity to your hypothesis then, but it would certainly have to be tested. My guess is that atheists who did go to church only feel as if the experience needs secular replication if they liked it.

      1. Yeah me too. Never went to church except in the company of others and usually didn’t know what was going on. In Kindergarten the substitute teacher asked what we had read in the bible (I guess they read the bible to us – my hick town school had a lot of religion mixed into public school that they’d never get away with now) & I didn’t know what the bible was. I bet that teacher thought I was a lost cause.

        So, when it comes to ritual, I more see it as something I have to deal with than something I enjoy.

        1. It is likely my grandchildren will wonder what the peripheral ritual of Xmas is. Bittersweet thought as it is not now…but it is something worth establishing through reason and veracity.

      2. My guess is that atheists who did go to church only feel as if the experience needs secular replication if they liked it.

        I grew up Catholic and prefer kneeling on uncooked rice to attending mass. Church was an excruciatingly-boring ritual where a man stupider than me lectured me about morality before asking for money. Oh, and group singing! To gospel songs! Yeah, I don’t miss that.

        However, I think talking about ethics is important, and I don’t think we do it enough in secular society. I think it should be taught in schools like any another subject. Sermons without the empty ritual part would be good, maybe.

        1. I like a good lecture, or a good bookstore reading, but sermon has connotations for me, at least, that are not positive regardless of subject matter or surrounding ritual.

          Sermons are pretty terrible, as a rule, because they have to cranked out on a weekly basis, because they are full of conventional wisdom masquerading as genuine wisdom, because they are restricted to a specific amount of time, and can neither be “too long” or “too short”, and there’s no opportunity for Q&A.

          They are the op-ed columns of public speaking.

        2. Sermons without the empty ritual part would be good, maybe.

          Not if the person doing the sermonizing is doing so from a position of authority…which is kinda the whole point to a sermon. Discussion and debate about ethics and morality is good, but ex cathedra pronouncements of right and worng are exactly what’s most problematical about sermons.

          b&

          1. Minor quibble… earned authority is a good thing. I’d prefer to listen to someone who is learned in a subject (ethics, evolution, rocket science, whatever) to the random comments of someone encountering a concept for the first time.

          2. I agree. I see religious people try to turn around the Appeal to Authority all the time; for e.g., if you call them out on quoting a Bible verse as the source for an argument and you quote Richard Dawkins, they’ll try to then say both sides are using appeal to authority equally, which is obviously absurd.

          3. Even still, authority earned such as you describe only deserves the presumption of correctness. Plenty of people learned in a subject have horribly mistraken and / or twisted ideas about the subject. That Phd. means you should give the person your attention and careful consideration. You still shouldn’t just blindly trust that person; you owe it to yourself to, insofar as you are able, independently validate whatever positions that person is taking.

            Of course, if the proponent has a good track record and it all passes the “sniff test” and nicely lines up with everything else you know, it’s probably not such a bad idea to run with it, at least for the time being.

            Cheers,

            b&

          4. My quibble didn’t advocate “just blindly trust”; only that authority, when earned, is not a bad thing.

            The faux authority of, for example, religious moralists is bad because priests and such have no more understanding than your average bologna sandwich where ethical matters are concerned. They are not, in fact, authoritative in the primary sense of the word (able to be trusted as being accurate or true; reliable).

          5. Indeed, give me a choice between a priest and a bologna sandwich — assuming, of course, the bologna didn’t come from Kraft and the bread isn’t Wonderful — and a priest, and the sandwich will win every time.

            b&

          6. Exactly — thicker layers of yellow plastic interspersed with thinner layers of transparent plastic. Last time I was presented with such, I had no clue which was ostensibly supposed to be eaten and which discarded. Or why, for that matter.

            b&

  6. So Suzanne Moore thinks that atheists are too much like believers, so we should behave more like… believers?

    I don’t get it.

  7. Bah. Catherders.

    And there’re already secular traditions of weekly meetings where people get together to sing, or meditate, or read poetry, or what-not. They’re called, “Community Choirs,” “Yoga Classes,” and “Poetry Slams,” respectively. The great thing is that only people interested in doing those things do them, and they generally do them much better and enjoy them much more than those who’re only there because Santa is watching and they really want that new bicycle.

    Cheers,

    b&

    1. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You’ve managed to clearly articulate something that has been bothering me for some time.

      For me the important point is this, believe (or disbelieve) whatever you want, but please don’t assume the right to tell me what to believe or how to behave in exercising those beliefs as long as neither of us is causing harm to others. (It is understood that there will be varying definitions of ‘harm’.)

    2. I do the first two of these, singing and yoga, and find them both fulfilling. Many people also get the same kind of support that churches provide through community sporting clubs, football, cricket, basketball, etc. and they get some exercise as well!

      1. Yup — sports, quilting circles, card and board games of countless varieties, model train building…and, ohlookyhere, even Web sites about evolutionary biology….

        Cheers,

        b&

  8. I’m fine with rituals as long as they are organic in the sense of not being self-consciously fabricated events. I walk to the coffee shop every morning. It is a ritual for me and when Roast Coffee Company is closed (for holidays or because someone forgot to get up early enough) I am to some minor extent destabilized.

    Ritual is comforting but hazardous. People want to “share” the things that make them comfortable and feel the need to get everyone else to participate in whatever their rituals are. And people get hypersensitive about their rituals. Pretty soon they are demanding that everyone say “Merry Christmas” and boycotting stores who greet customers with “Happy Holidays”.

    I don’t think atheists should climb on board the ritual train.

    1. I think you are talking about “routines,” going to the coffee shop every morning–it has a practical function, like watering your plants on the balcony. Rituals haven’t any practical function, they serve to transmit an idea, an impression, their function is to impress people, or even worse, to subjugate and control them. Just look at the rituals used in the past, and still now, used with the execution of people. For example, the fastidious rituals of the Orthodox Church are just a clever way to control people’s thinking and emotions.

      1. I know what you are saying, I think, but I think that sort of framing is trying to have it both ways. You can’t have the difference just come down to what one defines as “practical”, IMO. What’s practical? Do I really NEED coffee in the morning? Do I NEED to have it come from the coffee shop and not make it myself in the kitchen? Do I do it to impress people (the shop owner? my wife? possibly).

        The difference, I think, comes down to the extent to which we try to involve/coerce other people into these habits. Would it matter if a priest mumboed and jumboed and waved his swinging smoke candle around if he did so by himself? No. It’s the fact that the priest is part of an organized campaign of evangelization to get others to bow and scrape along with him that is problematic.

        Habits DO have practical value, if you extend “practical” to include psychological gratification. And why not do that? It is the socially coercive nature of religious ritual (and atheistic faux-religous ritual, IMO) that is worrisome.

      2. Dividing one’s day into personal rituals is what makes life worth living, but starting superfluous rituals that substitute the religious experience of life has little benefit to society.

        Atheists should go to the opera or volunteer at community education events or clear litter from highways…these routines are powerfully motivating and sociable and a natural extension to one’s personal routines.

      3. Dividing one’s day into personal rituals is what makes life worth living, but starting superfluous rituals that substitute the religious experience of life has little benefit to society.

        Atheists should go to the opera or volunteer at community education events or clear litter from highways…these routines are powerfully motivating and sociable and a natural extension to one’s personal routines.

  9. You say in regards to Schulson…”Still, I think the entire world would be better if nobody based their opinions on unevidenced and transcendent beings.” The key word here is ‘unevidenced’ because you believe despite a lack of evidence that the world would in fact be better without theism. To me, that is precisely the problem with New Atheism, its hypocrisy – you demand evidence from believers without demanding evidence for your own beliefs. I’m not trying to invalidate any argument against theism per the tu quoque argument, I am simply asking for consistency from the argument maker because it is obvious New Atheists are not examining their own beliefs (I recognize that hypocrisy on part of the argument maker does not invalidate the truth). If New Atheists are not going to examine their own beliefs, then yes, they should be softer on religion.

    1. You must be new here.

      Jerry’s posted lots of evidence over the years. The simplest and most obvious is the negative correlation between a society’s religiosity and its health and wealth. Scandinavia and Japan top the list in health and wealth, but are at the bottom in religiosity. And, while the US is a bit of an outlier, the same trend holds true within the states; the ones with the most disfunction (crime, unwanted pregnancies, unemployment) and lowest wealth are also the most religious.

      So, before accusing people of hypocrisy for not having evidence to support their positions, you just might wish to see what evidence they’ve actually got before assuming that, since you’re ignorant of any evidence, such evidence must not exist.

      Cheers,

      b&

      1. I have to corroborate this. In Europe, if you look at the countries where religion plays an important role in society, you also have the lowest level of the acceptance of social responsibility by government. Just look at the southern countries, like Italy, Spain, Greece, where religion plays an important role, and where social responsibility of government (such as support of the unemployed) is the lowest or non existent, and where corruption is the highest. And look what happens in Spain, you have a new Pope who knows something about public relations and you have anti-abortion laws being proposed in Spain.

      2. A quick caveat… after long experience in Japan, I can say that while there is very little religious zealotry of any kind, most Japanese continue to observe religious rituals regularly. Even my wife’s few Catholic relatives in Kyushu (whose Catholicism seems to be of the cradle variety) visit Shinto shrines often.

        1. As I understand it — and this is emphatically from a distance — the Japanese don’t believe in the supernatural elements of those rituals any more than Westerners do in knocking on wood or throwing spilt salt over the shoulder. Yes, the Japanese take the rituals much more seriously than Westerners do anything we might find parallel, but the Japanese culture itself is very ritualistic and formalized.

          After all, while an American (but not this one) might get a cup of coffee from the drive-through on the way to work, the Japanese have an entire ceremony just for tea. (Though I’m sure that plenty of tea in Japan is unceremoniously drunk in cubicles, too — the point is that the closest Western counterpart would be a cup of coffee drunk whilst reading the morning paper during breakfast, with even that on the decline.)

          Cheers,

          b&

          1. The rituals in Japan are not new. The atheist movement is looking for some relatively quirky rituals to start and none of them formally make any sense.

          2. Here in Taiwan the only religious ceremonies are funerals, where you hire some Buddhist or Taoist guy to do a bunch of chanting you don’t understand and bow three times to the picture of the deceased.
            Weddings are entirely secular for the vast majority- you sign the papers at the government registry office, drive around in a procession honking your horn, and then have a banquet.

        2. Though nominally both Shinto and Buddhist, I suspect most Japanese would say they’re non religious. While rituals and ceremonies are widely observed, I don’t think it’s to connect with the supernatural, but to connect with tradition (especially in Shinto). Oddly, the entire time I was there, the only people I recall wanting to talk religion were Japanese Jehovah’s Witnesses (very small in number)… they work the railway stations.

    2. If it was possible to prove that a world without religion was better off, then there wouldn’t be religion.

      You’re basically asking atheists to prove the unprovable or to abandon the idea altogether.

      1. My first thought as well.

        We’re supposed to convince the world’s population to abandon theism so we can run an experiment to determine whether or not it would be a good idea to convince the world’s population to abandon theism.

        But that’s moot anyway, because as Ben pointed out, there is evidence that religion and dysfunction correlate strongly, and that secularism and eu(?)function also correlate strongly.

        But even that’s moot, because nobody is asking for religion to actually go away. Thinking that we’d be better off without it is not the same thing. We’re only asking that it be kept private and not intrude into government or other public arenas.

    3. ” To me, that is precisely the problem with New Atheism, its hypocrisy – you demand evidence from believers without demanding evidence for your own beliefs.”

      Nice attempt to lie about most atheists. I have evidence for not believing in gods that are described by the religions. Believers have nothing.

      To claim that I have not examined my own beliefs is simply you trying to invent a strawman to attack. For example let’s examin the following. To say that the world would be better if we didn’t have claims that one group of people is better than another because of their invisible friend is easily supported. To say that not allowing parents to murder their own children because they believe in things that are not true would make the world a better place is easy to support. If you think I have not examined my position, you need to explain why such things should be allowed to continue. Tell me why I should be “softer” on religion when it directly causes such horrible things.

    4. You may have heard of this one already… it’s an oldie but goodie. It was used many times in many ways, effectively dispelling everything from phlogiston to the luminiferous ether:

      “Absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence… if evidence is expected.”

      Pretty much puts atheists — even hard-nosed 100% gnostic atheists (a tiny minority of atheists, BTW) — on better footing than ANY theist (gnostic or agnostic). The only thing left after using that razor is the most watered-down deism that it is virtually indistinguishable from the generally-agnostic atheist position.

      1. Torbjorn can fill in the details, but the short version is that even the effects of an hypothetical deistic god got diluted to homeopathetic proportions with Inflation in the moments after the Big Bang. And, aside from that, once the folks at CERN confirmed the existence of the Higgs, they also completed the search for anything that could even hypothetically influence human-scale phenomenon. There’s lots left to discover, sure, but we now know for a fact that it’s all too weak / small / big / etc. to be able to interact with an human brain or body, even theoretically.

        …and that’s before we get to the fact that all the god proposals are as incoherent as married bachelors living death in luxurious hovels north of the North Pole.

        Cheers,

        b&

  10. Moore makes it clear that she is more interested in stringing a bunch of words together to sound impressive, rather than writing something clear and intelligent, when she says “the chaos of ritual.” What does she think that means? What is it about ritual that is chaotic? This is worthless writing.

    1. It’s an oxymoron! Ritual puts order to the events of life. I don’t know what her weddings, funerals, and high school graduations were like but in my community they’re rather rigidly structured.

    2. My first thoughts too. Ritual is the opposite of chaos. It is prescribed actions that happen according to a set formula. No chaos or change of any kind is admitted. Perhaps she confuses “chaos” with “nonsense”.

  11. The Catholic Stand article is barely literate. In just the second paragraph I noticed:

    “Curtin” for “Curtain”
    “lead” for “led”
    “crowed” for “crowd” (twice!)

    and in the next paragraph, “to be know” for “to be known”.

    and later, “three-towed sloth”.

    At which point I began to wonder. How can anyone write that and think it makes sense? But apparently his commenters take him seriously.

    1. Three-towed sloth.

      The mind boggles. An eggcorn, probably, but one of the lower quality ones, being more of a misspelling.

      Reminds me of the tugboats that slowly towed three large sawdust barges up and down the coast here. Always three, and they would have a long row of seagulls perched along the ridges of sawdust, unable to resist a free ride.

  12. Personally I find the whole impulse to treat atheism as a religion oxymoronic and self defeating, but each to their own. For some it might fill a gap, since I think the reason most people submit to religion is some infantile need for structure

  13. ‘But to move many away from religion, a viable atheism has to weave itself into the social fabric and shed this image of dour grumpiness.’ Anthropomorphize much?

    Atheism is nothing more nor less than absence of belief in deities/deity. Atheism is refusal to bestow any imprimatur of viability upon unsupported claims. Atheism thus is inherently distinct and as distant as possible from religions/religious belief. Atheism is not any sort of entity and incapable of weaving or of embodying/shedding an image, dour & grumpy or otherwise. And finally, atheism is not responsible for any opinion of it.

    1. When atheists are not being accused of being dour and grumpy, they are being accused of being pie-eyed optimists who think everything is rosy and happy and people would all be good if only there wasn’t religion around to ruin things.

      I wish the critics would make up their damn minds here.

    1. It is what those of us who worship the Pope of Atheism do, I guess. We who really, really, really don’t believe in gods. As opposed to those who just don’t believe in them. Or something.

    2. I think it’s the type that eats bacon cheeseburgers on Saturdays.

      Not to be confused with fundamentalist atheists; they’re the ones who speak plainly on Sundays while not mishandling venomous snakes. Or the born-again atheists, who still don’t believe in imaginary friends even after getting a college degree. Or even the radical militant atheists, who have the temerity to put signs on busses rather than blow them up.

      Cheers,

      b&

      1. Ooooh, bacon cheeseburgers on Saturday, can I join? I’m not much good at orthodoxy as a general rule but this I could manage.

        1. There is the part where the elevators in your apartment block don’t stop and open their doors at every floor because pushing a button isn’t work.

          It should be possible to manage those sorts of things as well, although it might mean that every atheist out there qualifies as orthodox, given that they don’t wear their forelocks in braids and a whole bunch of other things like that.

        2. Absolutely! And the great part is that you don’t have to be religious about it. Eat bacon cheeseburgers on Saturdays only if the spirit so moves you. If you’d rather go for some bacon-wrapped shrimp, that’s good, too. Chinese spare ribs? Perfect! Or even roast brisket or latkes or matzoh ball soup (or all of the above).

          …and, for bonus points, you can drink your favorite alcoholic beverage with lunch in the middle of Ramadan, eat meat on Friday, chocolate during Lent….

          Cheers,

          b&

          1. I thought the fundamentalist atheists were the ones who went around screaming “You’re not going to Hell!” at gay people.

          2. Oh, c’mon. Even Richard Dawkins isn’t that strident. The most you’d get is an exasperated sigh, “Of course you’re not going to Hell! Don’t be silly — Hell is no more real than the monsters under your bed.” But screams? Not hardly.

            Cheers,

            b&

    3. It’s possible that Moore is suffering from a problem common to atheists who hang out with lots of other atheists. It’s the same problem you get in any group of like-minded people. The members fall into a range, from dilettantes and the mildly curious, to the general commitment-minded who make up the bulk, to the folks at the end who stand out as …well… “ultra-orthodox.”

      These are the atheists who refuse to speak to their religious neighbors and family. The atheists who seem to have a phobia about anything which even remotely resembles religion (like singing together.) The atheists who want to kick the agnostics, freethinkers, and humanists out of the group. The atheists who not only refuse to join an inter-faith alliance, they won’t even work with churches on causes like soup kitchens.

      Who? Who are these ‘ultra-orthodox?’

      I don’t know. I usually don’t hang out with them. We’re talking maybe one person here, one person there, and there’s often more than a little suspicion that there are mental health issues or traumatic backgrounds involved. But anyone who has hung around in any forum can probably think of someone that would fit the label ‘ultra-orthodox’ if they had to find someone to fit the label.

      If this is Moore’s problem, then she ought to know better than to address this fringe element in a public forum as if it were the mainstream, playing into the hands of a public eager to grab on to the idea that the typical atheist is ultra-orthodox, and perhaps that ultra-orthodox means something it doesn’t mean to Moore.

      In Moore’s defense, though, the article apparently wasn’t written for the general public.

      1. “In Moore’s defense, though, the article apparently wasn’t written for the general public.”

        Over the years I’ve subscribed to just about every atheist/secular humanist mag that came out, beginning, of course, with pre-Internet Free Inquiry. Eventually I cancelled all because they were mostly boring after a while; there’s only so much you can say about the subject. It obviously requires a lot of effort to scare up new sources/writers/ideas to fill each mag’s maw each month. I suppose there’s always an audience for the product, newcomers who have yet to hear particular tropes. And it doesn’t surprise me that editors will encourage articles that do stir up controversy–controversy = hits, subscriptions, etc.

  14. THIS>>>> “Thick-headed writers like Schulson, however, simply can’t fathom that being passionate about reason is different from being dogmatic about delusion.”
    ____

    Faitheists are largely apaths, that sizable swath who avoid rocking boats and expressing their individuality on their own terms. Their connectivity has to be predictably and dependently mediated. But they want their mediocrity to be considered special, quand meme. Their one commandment is: Do not shine brighter than me.

    Despite atheist butters’ lack of religious beliefs, their personalities belong with the religion-lite group. Take heart though, expressing their disenchantment in which they find themselves is unwittingly rocking their own boat, increasing the disturbing ripples already set in place by ‘strident’ atheists.

    Now excuse me while I partake in a ritual of one and soak in a hot tub infused with lavender from my garden. 🙂

  15. Personally I like some ritual, especially if I am playing a part, I like poetry, art, food, science and mathematics. I don’t like telling others what they should be doing. Criticise illogical and irrational statements by all means but don’t tell me what to do. I am arrogant enough to think that I know what I want to do better than some Grauniad columnist.

  16. Kink and I had a great Christmas! Presents, food, music, lights, decorations and food. Did I mention food?

    We cook certain foods once a year because they are special, take some preparation and just don’t fit with gumbo in July.

    I’ll even sing Silent Night to the howls of the neighbor’s dogs.

    Perhaps years in the future it will be like this:

    “Merry Christmas!”

    “Merry Christmas. Hey, what is Christmas anyway?”

    “Who knows. Pass the eggnog.”

    1. Check out “Tales from Moominvalley” by Tove Jansson. A classic collection of short stories for the young at heart (the themes are surprisingly adult for a “kid’s” book). The story “The Fir Tree” is about celebrating Christmas without knowing what it is. Gentle, funny, and definitely not religious!

  17. Disdain for a pluralistic society?

    Well, that’s a horribly inaccurate misdiagnosis, if not simply a brazen strawman.

    I have no problem with pluralism. I just need reason and reality, as opposed to wishful thinking and bigotry, to guide governance and education. Who would disagree with me?

    I think we should ask Schulson what his opinion of violent crime is. Is he willing to put his money where his pluralistic mouth is? Some things need to be eschewed. Wishful thinking and bigotry are two.

  18. It is amazing to me, though not surprising, that this Catholic Stand article takes a swipe at Evolution, despite Pope John Paul II having declared it as, “more than a mere hypothesis” in 1997. Not that the Church’s official position has reconciled this with the literal idea of Original Sin, nor have they gone out of their way to correct supposedly sophisticated Catholics who still assert Creationism, either old earth or young.

    Dawkins book is ironically dismissed as drivel, yet Duncan’s writing is exactly the sort of anti-scientific stance I’ve seen taken by other prominent Catholics such as Bill Donahue of the Catholic League. Moreover, I’ve visited popular forums such as Catholic Answers where not only is the topic of atheism banned, but so are threads regarding Evolution!

    The Church “embraces science” and talks about NOMA when faced with opposing views, but on the inside, it still comes down to having to accept some literal interpretation of the Bible. Sam Harris and Dawkins point this out constantly. Even if the Church were to cave and say Adam and Eve are metaphorical figures, why not then extend that all the way? If Jesus died for a metaphor, then maybe, just maybe, that story of the Resurrection, the crux of Christianity, is also a metaphor.

  19. I just refuse to read anything those AA (asshole atheists) try to tell me I need, I am missing or I am deficient of one or the other whatever.
    Get the fuck of our case. If you need something, get it fucking for yourself without telling me I need it too. Just fuck off.
    Don’t the fuck tell me my atheism is doing it sometimes wrong, I don’t need your fucking opinion about me. I have been a happy atheist for fifty years, and idiots who think they have the insight of why my atheism is wrong or deficient or not thought out just piss me off to no extent and make a grumpy old fart of this atheist.
    Again – fuck off or join a church.

  20. . .As a result, we can see in the writing of Dawkins and Sam Harris, and certainly in A Manual for Creating Atheists, a disdain for the whole idea of a pluralistic society—a disdain, tellingly, that they share with conservative evangelicals.

    Once again “religion” is being taken out of the category of “things we try to find the truth about” and stuck into the category of “things we do to express ourselves.” Truth seeking group vs. Diversity smorgasbord. Oh, not permanently removed, mind you. Just enough to declare it part of one’s identity — and thus immune to criticism.

    The idea seems to be that telling people their religion is wrong is like telling them their tastes are wrong. It’s saying they shouldn’t be like themselves — they ought to be like YOU. That’s so rude. If you change their minds then you diminish them.

    If they change their minds then they diminish themselves. This is the foundation of Religious privilege, the blithe idea that faith is a sign and expression of human potential. It’s more dangerous when it is unchallenged. It keeps theism as the virtue by framing atheism as the vice.

    When religious people eagerly assure me that they don’t care if their beliefs are true because God and spirituality and all the supernatural stuff is just pretend, then I’ll let them play their Ren Faire version of religion and accept a ‘pluralistic’ society where we can all be who we want to be. But as long as they think no, truth matters then religion is NOT the sort of thing we ought to consider a part of a person’s identity.

    It’s disrespectful to do that.

    1. Exactly! Great point.

      When Christians want to put the Ten Commandments in our courthouses, beseech Jesus in our council meetings, teach creationism in our public schools and insert Intelligent Design in our science textbooks, these are not “personal expressions” to be embraced. They are invasions to be resisted.

      At least by anyone who cares about living in a reasonable society.

  21. This person is just tone trolling, like so many others. If you aren’t equipped to assail the underlying logic, just accuse them of being some bleak stereotype that only exists in your own head.

    I’m tired of this caricature of atheists as lab coat wearing, humourless Vulcans. I bet if you asked this writer to name one person she knows that meets these descriptions, she’d probably just name-drop Dawkins or someone similar (meaning not any person she actually knows).

      1. Good point. It seems to me that most of the best humour around comes from atheists. You can make your own list, but I have to name Douglas Adams, Tim Minchin and Dara O’Briain.

        1. There’s also Larry David, creator of possibly the most popular sitcom of all time.

          Louis C.K. and Bill Burr would appear at a minimum, not to adhere to any religion. Seth MacFarlane, Trey Parker, Bill Maher, Adam Carolla, Eric Idle, Pat Condell, the list goes on and on. Ironically, these are all guys who have found mainstream success to differing levels and their humor is derived, I think, largely because nothing is held sacred, rather than the opposite.

  22. . . When it came to making a ceremony, I really did not want the austerity of some humanist events I have attended, where I feel the sensual world is rejected

    .
    My late wife’s funeral was so well conducted by a Humanist celebrant that there was spontaneous applause at the end of the eulogy. This included lots of personal details that all her friends and family could recognise. Isobel’s sense of humour came out in the choice of the guitar intro to “Stairway to Heaven” being played as the coffin wheeled its way to the incinerator. The “congregation” was warned at the start that anyone caught mentioning g-d or praying out loud would be ejected (on Isobel’s specific instructions)! It was, in fact, the best funeral I’ve ever attended!

      1. She certainly was! Black clothing was also banned. Music also included the theme from “Twin Peaks” during a break for quiet contemplation, and Rachmaninov’s piano concerto no. 2 in recognition of her love of B&W films, specifically “Brief Encounter”. All very personal. That’s the advantage of having time to plan your own funeral.

    1. That’s great. I should make similar arrangements for myself though I have hardly any family (all older than me) & I have no siblings so I totally intend to outlive everyone. I want to make sure to have a decent gravemarker since those things get found all the time in archaeological sites. I’ll have to figure out something witty. I like Eric Idle’s, “Say no more”.

  23. One big kudo and one big quibble.

    Yes, atheists with a soft spot for religion ought not to be telling other atheists they need one

    but re the statement “For those rigid and patriarchal faiths are precisely the ones that most rely on poetry, incense, wafers, candles, wine, and group prayer.” many many students of religion have noted that the glaring exception to this generalization is the fairly theologically liberal Church of England, the dominant faith of Moore’s home country.

    That last article by he Catholic is dreadful.

  24. Contra the faithiests: Bad ideas deserve ridicule. Generally speaking, people do not.

    People are not equivalent to their ideas.

  25. Having read Boghossian’s book and really enjoying it, I actually think the title is a bit narrow. More like what you might nickname the book. It’s really not ABOUT proselytizing atheism. Really regardless of what brand of dogmatic belief a person has, the book is really more about picking at the foundations of those beliefs, or rather the lack of solid foundations.

    The focus is on critical thinking tools, not arguments specifically against theism. If people find that irrational beliefs happen to be incompatible with critical introspection well them’s the breaks.

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