I get email: A Christian Christian!

May 9, 2013 • 6:01 am

All the reprimands, prayers, chastisements, and denigrations of evolution I receive from religious people recede into obscurity when I get something like this email. It arrived yesterday and is posted with permission ( last name abbreviated by request). I’ve also verified, as far as I can, that this person is real and not pulling some kind of hoax:

Dear Professor Coyne:

I have been contemplating how to write this email to you.  Let me start by saying I am a Christian but I am not here to argue about faith vs. belief vs. science nor am I here to tell you that what I believe is right while what you research is wrong.  I am here to tell you that I wish I could apologize for the treatment of the scientific community by the majority of Christians.

In the past few days, I have seen the various blogs/posts/comments about your speech at Appalachian State University.  In all honesty, it is hard for me to find a way to express the level of aggravation that I have with the majority of Christians who are posting on blogs and commenting about your speech.  I had no idea just how badly the scientific community is maligned (it is much more observable in the era of social media).  My frustration comes from so many areas.

I am frustrated because the majority of Christians who are critical have never researched evolution nor do they understand true science in general (in fact, I am still an amateur in this area as well but have been taking the MIT online open-course for biology to start learning).  Christians will argue that “evolution” is simply a theory and holds no true weight.  They do not understand what the theory even is nor do they understand how it has developed through the years.  Those same Christians are also quick to discredit the major impact evolution has had on various areas of science such as genetics, medicine, and paleontology for no reason other than it does not agree with their beliefs.

Instead of trusting science, they would rather discredit true research with faulty methods.  Instead of letting the evidence lead them to a hypothesis which can be tested (how evolution was developed and refined through the years), they start with two unproven starting points.  Their two starting points are that God exists (which cannot be proven) and that Genesis (and the Bible in general) is the literal representation of how God created the universe (which is also 100% accurate).  Their unproven starting points mean that every bit of evidence that supports evolution either has to fit in with their beliefs or has to be discredited as “flawed” science.  In essence, their practice of research is backwards.  Of course, the majority of people have no idea what any of the research says as they were born and raised and taught in an environment which does not allow for critical thinking and they simply argue what they were brainwashed to learn.

What bothers me most about this frustration is that they are taking biased opinions and putting them in an argument where they themselves have no standing!  I would find their arguments about evolution similar to an Afghan Taliban cleric telling an American historian that Muslim terrorists did not fly jets into the World Trade Center on 9/11 but that Mossad (Israeli Secret Service) blew the buildings up from within.  The evidence of the videotapes, the audiotapes and the remains of the jets doesn’t matter because of the presupposition of belief that the cleric has!

This leads me to my second point and another aspect of my frustration. This comes from the fact that most Christians ignore critical thinking in regards to their own religion.  There are many ways that I can prove that Genesis is not a literal account of creation (thus disproving their second starting point above).  If one researches how the Old Testament was written, one can see that the book cannot be 100% true in the ways that most Christians want it to.  Most Christians believe it was a spoken word direct from God that Moses composed, however; there are too many inconsistencies for this opinion to be correct.  Most research shows that Genesis (and most of the Old Testament in general) was an oral mythology that was spoken down from generation to generation.  Those tales were likely composed much later in history when Israel was ruled by Persia and later exiled by Babylon.  The scribes would add and retract from the stories when needed (usually in ways that would support Israel’s greatness and hope for a national future).  They usually did not pay attention to consistency thus creating various accounts of events that do not align with one another (read the first two Chapters of Genesis carefully to see that there are two separate accounts of creation that are in disagreement with each other).  There are inaccuracies, inconsistencies and errors when looking at the Bible as 100% in agreement with itself.  These cannot be avoided in careful study of a Bible.

Also, if one researches the society in which the books were composed, they would find that the overall beliefs of that society (similar to the beliefs of Israel composed in Genesis) are grossly inadequate to comprehend what has since been learned through modern-day scientific truths.  This can be proven and shown even without the controversial topic of evolution!  If we look at how the Ancient societies viewed weather, we can see how inadequate their worldview was to understand rain and snow.  If one believes in a literal Genesis they must also believe that there are heavenly storehouses that God would open and close in order to allow rain and snow to fall to the earth from the heavens.  Most Christians don’t understand that this is how Israelites viewed weather but a careful reading of a Bible (and understanding of neighbor societies) shows it to be true.  Science has shown us that there is much more to weather than an invisible dome covering the Earth that God opens and closes as he pleases.  The way I view Genesis and much of the Old Testament is that they are mythologies that were created to explain the unexplainable (much of which has now become explainable).  I can go into more detail about how inaccurate Genesis is in understanding today’s society but the discussion would get much longer.

With that said, I have my reasons for being a Christian, but I am not going to pretend that I will be able to find adequate scientific evidence for the existence of God or even that I can show that YHWH or the Judeo-Christian God of the Bible is the “correct” God to believe in.  I will simply say that I follow Christianity because I find that if one decides to be humble, living in accordance to Jesus’ command of “loving others” as “loving one-self” this world would be a better world to live. I also feel that much of Jesus’ life reflects this ideal.  Of course, this is my last and greatest frustration in reading the comments of those who cowardly confront you in anonymity and call themselves Christian.  I feel that many Christians are extremely hypocritical and know nothing of love.  They are supposed to follow Jesus in how they live their lives but are instead extremely self-righteous and arrogant always being right and tearing others down.  If the identifying trait of Christianity is meant to be love, we do an extremely terrible job of making that known to the world; in fact, I would say the identifying trait of Christianity in today’s world is hypocrisy.

As a Christian, it did take me time to get used to your blog as much of the anti-religious topics and comments were hard to get through.  In honesty, they still can be.  However, when I first started reading your blog, I figured that many of the anti-religious comments were unprovoked, malicious and hateful.  Now, after seeing how combative the Christian world is, how malicious and hateful they can be, I can say that the views of your readers can be seen as justifiable.

This email was meant in sincerity.  My faith is a journey that has changed much through the years with studying and critical thinking.  In the beginning of this email, I said I wish I could apologize.  This is 100% accurate.  I wish I had a position of influence in the Christian community where I could speak for them.  I do not.  I wish I could influence people to think critically and learn how to study properly.  I do not.  All I can do is come here and express my sadness in how a supposedly “loving” community treats a fellow man and his profession in the institution of science at large.  I can apologize for times that I may have contributed to their arrogance (in the past before I began studying the topic).  I can also apologize for being silent when mistruths about creation were taught in the Churches I lived in but that is the extent of it.

For my contributions I am sorry.  For the actions of others, I am simply ashamed.

Sincerely,

Jim P

Now I could go on and ask Jim why he doesn’t just adhere to the “love” part of his faith and jettison the superstition, or I could question whether it’s a good strategy to unconditionally love everyone, but why bother? Jim is a gracious person who took the time to write a thoughtful and kind letter about the pushback I got for criticizing religion at Appalachian State.  As Steven Weinberg famously said, a bit hyperbolically, “With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”  This is a case of a good person with religion doing good things.  And if all the faithful were like this, and didn’t impose their revelations on everyone else, I wouldn’t worry so much about religion.

This email meant a lot to me, and I’ll acknowledge that the only way I can: by putting it up and sending Jim an autographed copy of WEIT with a cat drawn in it.  It’s a good reminder that, in the end, we must judge religious people by both content of their character and their effect on the world.

Reply to Jim if you want, but I think you’ll agree with me that lecturing him or trying to dispel his notion of Christianity isn’t really the thing to do here.

133 thoughts on “I get email: A Christian Christian!

  1. I grew up in Alabama in a fundamentalist evangelical circle. That’s the Christianity I know. So it’s always very refreshing to read words such as Jim’s to remind me that not all Christians are part of the crazy anti-science, hateful crowd.

  2. Jim says “Most Christians believe it was a spoken word direct from God that Moses composed.” Maybe in the USA. In my experince in the UK this is just not so. At least (excluding the increasing number of the lunatic happy-clappy evangelical sects) the C of E is very middle of the road in believing in a more ‘let the universe get on with it’ type of god. (Which I still refuse to capitalise by the way.)

    1. I suppose many of the critics of ‘new atheism’ see themselves as either believers of this type, or friendly towards the views of their mates who are religious in that way.

    2. “Most Christians believe it was a spoken word direct from God that Moses composed.”

      That’s just how it happened!

      /@

      PS. I think we can forgive IA for thinking it was 15.2B years, rather than 13.8B. But יהוה would’ve known better.

    1. My thought exactly, Mark. Jerry doesn’t let us get away with that. LOL

      Otherwise, it’s a gracious and thoughtful letter, Jim P, and along with Jerry I’d like to thank you for it. The internet being what it is, it’s difficult to remember that the obnoxious noisemakers, the Bryan Fischers, Pat Robertsons, and the like, don’t necessarily speak for more than a fraction of what is after all a very large group, and that thoughtful and introspective Christians do exist.

    2. Crap! Since I wrote on the subject of apologies, I might as well offer one more for that.

      After a year of reading faithfully, I can’t believe I made that error.

      1. PS: You can ignore my old blog. The last time I wrote on it was over a year ago and my views have changed much (or you can read it and judge where I started my journey from)

      2. PS: You can ignore my old blog. The last time I wrote on it was over a year ago and my views have changed much (or you can read it and judge where I started my journey from)

  3. It’s people like Jim that make me fascinated in religious people. It’s easy to hate religion, but not so easy to hate the religious. Unfortunately on the rare occasions when I do meet people like Jim I have a thousand questions for them. Just by asking those questions (such as why Jesus and not Buddha or Homer any thousand other prophet types?) that I get accused of being militant and persecuting by others. Friends who agree with me on everything are quite boring. Someone who thinks like Jim, who seems to be honest yet different, I could be good friends with.

  4. I empathize with Jim. The hypocrisy he describes I too experienced. I found over time that the consistency of the hypocrisy made the idea of a guiding Holy Spirit probably false and therefore Christianity probably false too. Agnosticism and Atheism soon followed. One need only take Christianity at its face relative to its devout followers to undertstand it as a superstition.

    1. After reading your comment and reflecting on Jim’s acceptance of science, I’m thinking that Jim is about one adaptation away from agnosticism.

      Jim, have you read “Godless” by Dan Barker, former evangelical?

    1. What is “courageous” about writing a letter to an academic? My idea of “courage” is obviously different from yours. Perhaps I need a new dictionary.

      1. It is very easy for some to stay in the background and keep quiet when things get politically charged. In order to keep the dialogue decent, I believe in giving credit where credit is due and I don’t have to justify that to anyone.

  5. Jim,

    You seem to be much too sane and rational a person to continue to bog yourself down with the burden of religion.

    If I may, permit me to toss out some questions that should help you finish the journey you’ve started.

    First: Has Jesus read the King James Bible? Not, of course, did he read the Bible during his ministry…but has Jesus, seated at the right hand of the Father and who judges the living and the dead…has he read the KJV Bible? If so, would it not seem reasonable to suggest that, as a good judge of human nature, he’s fully aware that sincerely devoted people of a literal mindset will most reasonably and understandably interpret it literally? And, if he has a problem with that, considering how popular an interpretation it is of the Bible, wouldn’t it be reasonably within his power to do something to correct such a very popular misconception?

    Next…I’m guessing that you, like most people, shun faith in all aspects of your life save for religion. You have no faith that the used car you’re considering buying is good, so you either get a good guarantee in writing or take it to a mechanic with a proven history of trustworthiness and no conflicts of interest. You have no faith in the stock broker pushing a penny stock primed to soar, so you check the SEC filings for yourself and follow up with your own investigation of this “insider information” and you still consider it a gamble even if you go through with it. You have no faith in your political leaders, which is why you go to the polling booth every few years to decide if they need to be swapped out for somebody else.

    So why on Earth would you have faith in religious beliefs?

    Cheers,

    b&

    1. As I said above, “Reply to Jim if you want, but I think you’ll agree with me that lecturing him or trying to dispel his notion of Christianity isn’t really the thing to do here.”

      1. But he’s this =><= close to coming to his senses!

        Ah, well. Nuke my post if you think it would be the polite and politic thing to do, and I’ll refrain from similar responses on this thread.

        b&

        1. I’m sympathetic with Ben in the sense that it’s so hard for us to hold back from helping him complete Jim’s journey. So close!

          1. I don’t believe Jim needs our help in completing his journey. He’s obviously intelligent and thoughtful and seems to be in control of his journey. In fact, there may be value in people like Jim continuing to remain a christian. Maybe he can convince other christians to share his beliefs.

            Let’s not strive to tell others how to believe (or more accurately, to not believe); but rather, strive to keep believers from forcing us to live our lives they way they think their god tells them to live their life (not that many of them live their own lives the way they try to make us live ours).

          2. dev41 wrote:

            Let’s not strive to tell others how to believe (or more accurately, to not believe); but rather, strive to keep believers from forcing us to live our lives they way they think their god tells them to live their life

            2 problems:

            1.) We’re not “telling” others what to believe if they’re interested in understanding, exploring, and reasoning about the issue. Science is always “telling others how to believe” and presumably you’re fine with that. Why make a special case for religion? Do you think religious believers are intellectual babies and we’re out of their league? Not true. Not always.

            2.) How can we prevent true believers from forcing us to live according to the will of God if we’re not permitted to throw doubt upon the existence of God? Do we tell them that atheists just ‘know’ that if God did exist, then He would be a secular humanist and not a fanatic? God pretty much has to be a religious fanatic, though — always claiming to know what He wants us to do.

        2. Ben:

          No reason to nuke the comment! I enjoy pushback and conversation. If you look above, you can get an idea of how far in the “evangelical conservative” camp I was in. I actually logged in on WordPress forgetting that I had a blog that I long-since gave-up on (the name is JPete79 on a comment above).

          If you asked me a few years ago (and even up to last year on some subjects) where I stood on various topics, I would have said that I believed in the Genesis account for Creation, that homosexuality was virtually an unforgiveable sin in the eyes of God, that Jesus had to be nailed to the cross because of my sins, and that women were not capable of leadership positions in a Church.

          If you ask me now, I have changed a ton! I believe and trust in the scientists that have devoted their life to biology and studying evolution (instead of those who never looked thru a book and have discredited it). I have met many homosexuals who are great people and are better human beings than myself. I have started to believe Jesus life and death was about sacrifice and humility in showing us how we are supposed to live. It had much more meaning than most evangelical circles have made it (which is nothing more than a self-centered insurance policy to “Get out of Hell free”). Finally, after spending time with various wonderful women who are fully capable of teaching outside Church circles; it seems rather odd that the Church doesn’t want them teaching in them. Of course these views are from the evangelical community in the US (I cannot speak for Europe).

          The reason I say this, is I don’t mind pushback. My beliefs are a lot more complex than what I have just put above and admittedly has various superstitions (as you would call them). And who knows, in time, I may end up being the rational human being that you want me to be 😉

          That’s what journeying through life is about, maturing and changing, learning and studying!

          Sincerely,
          Jim

          1. PS: I have also been trying to post under Jim P (so there is no confusion) but apparently wordpress wants me to keep signed in…that’s how I will continue to comment for the remainder of the discussion

          2. Jim,

            I’ll bet you a beer (or other suitable beverage) that, in under a decade, you’ll have largely completed the introductory portion of your journey of discovery and shed the last vestiges of your faith by then.

            Cheers!

            b&

          3. Ben,

            You are on! Its a win/win for everyone involved. I still consider beer probably the closest thing to evidence of a God who cares for us because itsis(well certain microbrews and imports are) so damn good.

            If you want to put odds up, feel free to use this starting point, I found that Beak of the Finch about the Grants life in the Galapogos a much better read than 1/3 of the Old Testament.

          4. If you like the genre of the Old Testament but didn’t care so much for the particular execution, you might enjoy some of its contemporary competition. The Greeks in particular were masters of the form; start with Homer and Hesiod, but don’t overlook the tragic playwrights (Euripides, Sophocles, etc.). There’s also the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Egyptian Book of the Dead rounding out the Mediterranean; epic Veda poetry from the Indian subcontinent; the Teutonics from Europe who gave us our names for the days of the week; a whole different mythological world familiar to the Chinese largely unknown to Westerners; and aboriginal oral traditions from every part of the globe. The Australian Dreamtime, I understand, is particularly colorful, for example.

            Cheers,

            b&

    2. > So why on Earth would you have faith in religious beliefs?

      He has faith in religious beliefs because everybody else in his community also has and he would be shunned, maybe even by his own family, if he publicly professed a doubt.

      If you lived in rural Afghanistan, had no way to escape and, say, had a daughter, would you dare to _not_ indoctrinate her the way the surrounding community expects you to?

      Religion is George Orwell’s “five fingers”.

      1. I think I would go through the motions to the extent necessary but, I would tell her the truth. If she expressed a strong desire to actively protest I would join her while being as protective as possible. Forcing her to spend life participating in the muslbun isn’t acceptable.

        Religion is a disease and needs to be opposed as much as can be done by each individual.

        1. A “disease”? Isn’t that a bit over the top? How about, “respectably disagree.” Manners, dear. Still relevant, even for atheists.

    3. Isn’t it a mite condescending to suggest that because Jim is such a bright and thoughtful guy he’s almost surely going to end up thinking — surprise! — just like you?

      1. If I had been on that path — and I haven’t — and if I was the only one to go down that path — and I wouldn’t be — then perhaps.

        But have a look at, for example, Richard Dawkins’s Convert’s Corner and you’ll find case after case of people starting exactly where Jim started, pausing briefly where he describes himself, and winding up alongside Jerry and his typical reader.

        It’s by no means the only path to rationalism, but it’s probably the most common and certainly the most easily recognizable.

        Cheers,

        b&

  6. Professor Coyne says go easy on ‘Jim,’ so I shall. HOWEVER. If Jesus is taken as a social ethicist, there are plenty better throughout history. If he is taken as Christ, then one has committed oneself to a religion replete with its supernatural trappings and dogma. Like a very good friend of mine, now in the last stages of a protracted decline toward death, Jim appears to be an intellectual seeker. I believe there is no higher human occupation, though what one may find is, as Emily Dickinson put it, ‘The Brain is wider than the Sky.’ Onward, Jim, and let the bosons and fermions fall where they may.

  7. Hi Jim,

    I’m a former christian, of the catholic variety. At this point in my life, I might describe myself as a joyful nihilist. As I read your note my heart went out to the christians for whom you were apologizing.

    I see them as victims of a delusion, in need of healing, but tragically out of reach. The delusion takes advantage of a vast store of cognitive biases to defend itself against any approach that it finds threatening.

    You’re very fortunate that you have been able to free yourself from as many biases as you have. How did that happen?

    There’s nothing to apologize for Jim. We’re all in this together. I say love ’em where you find ’em.

    Jack

    1. Jack:

      It’s a pretty long story and perhaps I will include it all later. Briefly it is this, I was born and raised Catholic. My mom moved from Catholicism to an EV Church when I was about 13 (because of the materialism and money that was involved in Catholicism). I received my Confirmation and then began going to my mother’s Church Youth Group. This is where I was “taught” the various dogmas, traditions, ideologies, etc of conservative Christian faith.

      Years went by and I continued on in the journey that was there. I was your typical Christian believing in my sinfulness and Jesus’ redemption. In fact, I spent two years in an Islamic nation because I was so devoted to this idea and how important it was for others to “accept” him.

      During those two years, I started asking myself, why would a Muslim believe in Allah? And I came to the conclusion through studying that it had to do with indoctrination and geography (dumb luck of being born in Middle East/North Africa). Instead of getting them to simply “accept” Jesus, my mindset changed into helping them learn how to critically study so they can decide whatever they want in belief. Then I thought of the beliefs in my own faith and where they originated and how I never questioned them the way I’m asking another person to question his/her faith.

      I began reading and studying about various topics when that happened. Evolution was one of them, Church history was another one (an extremely ugly one at that), Bible interpretation and other subjects. Little by little, opening books also opened my mind and changed much of my beliefs.

      I only hope that as I continue to learn, I continue to change!

      1. Looks like you’re headed home, Jim.

        Here’s some gospel for you to chew on on your way, discovered by science and delivered directly to you by the natural universe.

        Your nature is innocent, not corrupt. Your innocence is not your doing and is invulnerable to your undoing.

        We’ll keep a light on.

        Jack

      2. Religion attempts the “why” whereas science explores the “how.” What’s the big deal and why the bunker mentality?

        1. The big deal is that if the factual claims about religion (God; Spirit; karma) are not really true or even likely, then the “why” answers are bunk.

      3. very much enjoying the discussion here. Jim, do you have a link to your blog? would like to follow your journey. I didn’t see one listed on the gravatar thingy.

  8. Wow such a thoughtful note that was carefully put together! This shows that there can be progress and kudos to Jim for choosing to take a whole course on biology. I hope he continues to question.

  9. Nice letter, Jim.

    Frankly, I’d have zero problem with Christianity and Christians if they all comported themselves the way you do. Or any religion, frankly.

    If you think someone named Jesus called you to be a nice person, and therefore you’re going to be a nice person, that’s fantastic.

    I happen to think that you’re probably a nice person anyway. Most people are.

    It’s only when the religious try to tell me how to act, what to eat, what to wear and not wear, what bits of my body need to be hacked off to appease their god, and on and on, that I get a tad upset.

  10. I just can never understand how the earth being created in 6 days, in two different ways, is really that much different than a guy born of a virgin coming back to life after being bled out for several days. On top of that, apparently we are all secretly immortal.

    But yes, those OTHER Christians are craaaaaazy.

    1. This is very well said. The conclusions Christians make to the necessary efficacy of their belief ignores the fact that morality (and often times a much more durable morality) exists outside of their theology. Even if those stories were true, there is no need to believe they are essential to one’s personal betterment.

      Most Christians are like this letter writer. They cherry pick one virtue within the Gospel and ignore the context of that virtue. Most don’t even have a coherent understanding of why Jesus had to die (they’ve never thought of it). The virtue he expresses as atomizing to his belief is not exclusive to Christianity (universal human respect) and, as Jerry said, might be better realized if one discards the supernatural antecedents it supposes.

      1. This is where the historical work (e.g. on the mythicist viewpoint) is valuable. For that does allow people to pick and choose and learn the tiny scraps of good stuff, etc.

      2. Chuck,

        In all honesty, I would say ALL Christians are like me in that they pick and choose what they want to believe and how they want to believe. You won’t hear me deny it (though you may hear many evangelicals deny it).

        My own case is probably much different than the majority of them as I don’t look at a Bible as being 100% true and “inerrant” as much as a historical document that can show us practical ways in which we should live.

        I see the Old Testament as the story of Israel and its history (told from a relatively biased perspective to an audience much different than the normal modern-day church-goer). I see the Gospels as the teachings of Jesus and how those teachings created chaos on the social norms (and religion) of the day. The various documents after, I try to look at and see how they correlate to what Jesus said and what they meant to the Greek/Roman audience and whether or not those are applicable today. I guess I look for practicality more than spirituality.

        Thanks,
        Jim

        PS: I believe morality can exist outside of theology. I can’t say how or where it originates but I can say I have seen plenty of moral people from all walks of life.

        1. That doesn’t make any sense to me from the point of view of the gods. Seriously? [God: I’ll just go ahead and throw this here book at ’em. It has a lot of bunk and if it has any value it only really applies to maybe one century. But damn it all to heaven, they’ll just have to figure out for themselves what words and phrases I intend them to twist to my liking.]

          The reality is that each christian becomes their own separate and distinct god depending on how they want their life to be at any particular time. God is simply an excuse to support their current position.

  11. What a nice letter, and what a refreshing change from the complaint that new atheists or “the media” are mischaracterizing Christians. The letter writer acknowledges that many Christians do in fact believe that way, wishes he could do something about it, and acknowledges that he can’t! That’s a lot of honesty and clear-thinking on his part.

  12. Great letter Jim, very touching. I say don’t worry about the judgmental, angry Christians and just enjoy your pursuit of love, knowledge and reason. That’s my kind of “religion”.

  13. Jim,

    Great letter and thanks for sharing it with Prof. Coyne. You are brave indeed to question the authority and dogma under which you were raised. I leave you with a quote from Christopher Hitchens, one of my heroes who was such a vocal advocate for free inquiry, freedom of expression, and an enemy of authority at many levels:

    [T]he offer of certainty, the offer of complete security, the offer of an impermeable faith that can’t give way, is an offer of something not worth having; I want to live my life taking the risk all the time that I don’t know anything like enough yet; that I haven’t understood enough; that I can’t know enough; that I’m always hungrily operating on the margins of a potentially great harvest of future knowledge and wisdom, I wouldn’t have it any other way, and I’d urge you look at those of you who tell you, those people who tell you, at your age, that you’re dead until you believe as they do—what a terrible thing to be telling to children—and that you can only live by accepting an absolute authority. Don’t think of that as a gift, think of it as a poisoned chalice; push it aside, however tempting it is. Take the risk of thinking for yourself. Much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way.

    1. That’s an awesome quote!

      While I haven’t always agreed with Christopher Hitchens, I can say that he was a wonderful communicator and much of what he says resonates with me.

      Of course, as a Christian, we got the other one – we got the short-end of the stick there!

  14. This person strikes me more as a cultural Christian than a “true” Christian. He says as much:

    I will simply say that I follow Christianity because I find that if one decides to be humble, living in accordance to Jesus’ command of “loving others” as “loving one-self” this world would be a better world to live. I also feel that much of Jesus’ life reflects this ideal.

    This doesn’t show any belief in the supernatural aspects of Christianity; in fact, many atheists might agree with his statement.

    1. His statement reflects a idiosyncratic Christianity that seems to avoid the religion’s true meaning of human depravity in Original Sin and therefore the necessary blood propitiation of Jesus as the “Second Adam” to make up for the “First Adam”.

      There are many “Christianities” in our culture – the more fundamental, the less humane, the more humane, the less Christian.

      1. Is this another definition of “humane” that I don’t find in my ole’ Webster’s? Humane, as in Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin, Kermit Gosnell, Mao (both of them)…?

        1. No humane as in charitable, as in not Christian apologetic historical cherry-picking to form a cliched strawman.

    2. There is a simple question which separates religious people who are religious humanists from those who are not. It’s this:

      “If it turns out that God does not exist after all and you were to come to that conclusion — then what would you change about your values and your life?”

      Those who are essentially humanist will answer “not much, if anything.” Oh, they may pray less or not do as much work for their church, sure. But when it comes to the big things which concern them — love for family, humanity, the environment, learning, beauty, virtue, kindness, etc. etc — this would all remain intact. Why? Because it all had value for its own sake. Push comes to shove, they’d change very little about how they would live.

      A religious humanist can consider the hypothetical and come out strong because they only believed in God in the first place because of their appreciation for what they experience in this world. They can substitute a different explanation and continue.

      And those who are religious but not humanist fall apart. It all breaks down. Love, nature, and life ONLY have value because of God. If there is no God then there is no meaning to anything and it all loses its worth. So they would kill themselves or kill other people or turn into shallow, self-absorbed ego-maniacs because they would be empty and the world is now devoid and pointless … and they found that secret out.

      Or, perhaps, they would find it — or claim to find it — impossible to consider the possibility that there is no God. Sorry. No can do. Their experience of God is soooo intense and their recognition that it all comes from God is sooooo certain that asking this question is like asking them to square the circle or believe that they themselves don’t exist but are still there to know they don’t exist: contradictory nonsense. Faith lets you know this kind of thing, you see. It humbles you. Uh huh.

      I do wonder a bit how Jim would answer this question but I’m pretty sure he would give the first response. It’s a reasonable answer and he’s been on a roll.

      1. If you asked me ten years ago, it would easily have been the latter. Today it may be the former but I can’t say it would be an easy transition 😉

        1. I struggle with understanding the second answer, though. If a person doesn’t care whether they live a life with love, compassion, passion understanding, beauty, and goodness as we understand these things through our experiences in the world — then why would they care about God? Why would they choose God over Satan?

          The transition isn’t as dramatic as it may seem. I think either the values come first and foremost … or all God is, is an arbitrary authority which uses force. That isn’t what you care about. Is perfection then the standard?

          Christians often make a fuss about how unique, how significant, and how important the concept of ‘agape’ is — a love which is given freely and purely, and despite the unworthiness of that which receives it. Love for its own sake. Consider the possibility that, in accepting and nevertheless embracing an imperfect reality in a universe which doesn’t care about us, atheists are forced to actually live this … but Christians only admire it at a distance as an ideal in God.

          If God existed, I think it would be humanistic.

    3. What could the words “follow Christianity” possibly mean? Participate in the rituals without really believing – then it’s a charade. Really believe Jesus is the Son of God – then it’s lacking critical thinking.

      1. Or maybe just comforting. And a familiar habit. It’s hard to shed all the associations …

  15. Ok. I won’t lecture Jim but I will lecture Jerry.

    The title of your post is problematic. What Jim is doing in the letter — being reasonable, understanding science, approaching the Bible with critical scholarship and advocating love for all humanity — is not “Christian” behavior. I mean, it may be consistent with Christianity but it is not specifically derived fromChristianity.

    It’s humanism. You got email from a Humanist Christian.

    That’s why the title bothers me. It seems to buy into the trope that being reasonable and loving is what defines a Christian AS a Christian. No. Technically what defines a Christian is the belief that God exists and Jesus Christ died for our sins — and that statement needs to be interpreted religiously and not just rephrased into a metaphor for something worldly. Jesus Christ spent most of his ministry pushing a supernatural metaphysics and snarling about what happens in the afterlife to those who reject Him. If you cherry-pick his sayings into being about how to live a good life here on earth then you’re a secular humanist and cultural Christian. You’re not a Christian who is actually acting like a Christian.

    Please don’t advance the idea that “Christian” is just another synonym for “good.”

    1. Heh. I wrote this before I saw what Greg Esres wrote at #19.

      Must be the ESP effect of the Hive Mind. Or not.

    2. Thanks but I don’t really need a lecture. My first use of the word “Christian” was a bit tongue in cheek: I meant what Christians often say they aspire to do, but rarely achieve. And yes, that is humanism.

      1. Well, my use of the word “lecture” was also a bit tongue in cheek.

        Yeah, I know you know my point re humanism. It’s just that it’s sooooooo popular to equate being genuinely “Christian” with the aspiration to have a good character that I winced when I read the title. I won’t pretend I can command you to not make me wince, though. Or roll my eyes. Or sigh heavily, but with resignation and acceptance.

        So it’s okay.

    3. This is so very apt and clear-headed. One of the greatest ills of Christianity is that it has co-opted the virtues of secular enlightenment as its own (and something Christians who follow a systematic theology mourn too – those would be the anti-science crowd Jim describes).

      Christianity is not subjective to human good-will or intellectual inquiry. It is devoted to the worship of an absolute authority as a treatment for the endemic rottenness that is humanity.

      Jim is a secular humanist who seems like he enjoys and gains meaning from cultural Christianity as a metaphor for his humanism. The giants of Christianity would disregard his theology as something un-Christian indeed. He respects the goodness of people too much (this is something that Jesus never did, why the “love” he preached was conditional – the Doctrine of Hell does not exist prior to formal Christianity).

    4. Not really a problem, the thing that jerry highlights in the title is that, finally, there is a christian whose actions are compatible with the christian ideal. He could have written, “A humanist christian!”, but this would not have served the rhetorical point that was intended.

  16. Good letter, Jim. You are clearly a decent chap. Enough said.

    Ehhhh except maybe……… no, never mind.

  17. A well thought out and rational email!
    I think that if Jim here is trying to let his life be guided by a certain set of ethics, it shouldn’t matter where they come from as long as he is using them wisely and not letting go of his own sense of understanding and judgement in the meantime.
    I think he had a very good grasp of the incredibility and dis-credibility of the Bible and is choosing to view it with an open mind rather than a closed one. He should have the right to do that, as long as he is viewing science in the same way. 🙂

  18. Nice letter Jim. You are either very lonely in your congregation, or you are in a very rare congregation.

    1. dhart,

      I no longer have a congregation (left awhile ago after moving). However, towards the end of my stay there it was the first.

      It was at the point where the pastor of the Church and various leaders would not let me voice my opinions on topics because they questioned dogma and tradition.

      I still have some friends from there but it wasn’t a pretty end to my life there!

  19. I belong to the Church of Jerry Sptinger, which eliminates religion entirely. He ends each show with the only commandment I need – “Be good to yourselves, and each other.”

    archaeopteryx

  20. Jim-
    You’ll enjoy the works of John Shelby Spong – and those of other “Progressive Christianity” writers. He’s written many books and speaks all over the country. Try for a lecture, but certainly read his books.
    And thank you for your letter.

  21. I note that in the title Jerry uses the word “Christian” in an older, now not much used sense, but which in the case of Jim is quite deserved. There was a time when the “Christian thing to do” meant the merciful, compassionate, empathic, forgiving, loving thing to do. This use of the word “Christian” of course assumed a particular view of, and emphasis on, certain of Christ’s teachings (see e.g. Jefferson’s Bible), and was conditioned on the dominance of Christianity in the English-speaking world. But, it had no doctrinal or superstitious implications, and could be applied to anyone. (In the same way that Carlos Arredondo or Ruslan Tsarni or Charles Ramsey is a mensch, even though none of them are Jewish or speak Yiddish.)

    It has taken decades of determined effort by Christians to make “right wing” and “conservative” the word-association matches for “Christian”, and to make the “Christian thing to do” the self-righteous, arrogant, condemnatory, unsympathetic thing to do. It’s nice to find a Christian who deserves the earlier denotation.

    1. Sorry, but no. I have zero nostalgia for the time when the “Christian thing to do” meant the merciful, compassionate, empathic, forgiving, loving thing to do … and could be applied to anyone.

      I put the phrase on par with “that was white of you.”

      1. “I put the phrase on par with “that was white of you.”

        Yes, that was a common phrase when I was a child in the South. Thankfully, I haven’t heard it in over thirty years.

    2. +1

      While I haven’t been a Christian for a couple of decades now, I still find myself wanting to correct other Christian’s take on Christianity, to tell them, “You’re doing it wrong!”. I know that everything Jesus says isn’t that great, promoting the idea of Hell, for example, is just a crime. Nonetheless, it is pretty clear that there is a lot of emphasis on the kinds of things you list: mercy, compassion, empathy, forgiveness. Jesus says people will know who his disciples are by their love, that we were to love our enemies and turn the other cheek, that if someone sued us for our shirt we should give them our coat also (what if they sue us for our Nativity scene?). It was emphasized that on the day of judgment the “sheep” would be separated from the “goats” based not on what we said or claimed but on whether or not we fed the hungry, clothed those who needed it, took care of the sick, and visited those in prison.

      As a non-believer now I shouldn’t really have a stake in the reputation of Christianity or in whether or not Christians are living up to it’s best ideals, but somehow it still pains me to see Christians not being… well, “Christian”.

      1. No, actually Jesus said you will know true believers by their actions – they are the ones handling snakes, drinking poison, and casting out demons.

        1. He said that too, and that’s clearly not such a great thing to say. But he also said that people would know his disciples by their love. Look it up. You can probably drink poison and show people love both… though not for long.

          1. Clearly the Bible means not all disciples are true believers. While all Jesus’ disciples love one another the true believers handle snakes, the rest are just humanists who like the label “Christian”.

  22. Jim,

    You said “I wish I could influence people to think critically”. As Michael Jackson says, you can start with the man in the mirror.

    DV

  23. Perhaps you can share with me what you think of Jesus. But I really don’t find Jesus any better than the God in the old testimony. Imagine what a horrible father one would be when telling his children to ‘go to hell’ simply because they didn’t acknowledge his fatherhood.

    1. Yi:

      There is a lot behind this that I am not sure where to start.

      I will start with the God of the Old Testament. When I read the OT (and I am not going to lie, a lot of it is boring and hard to get through), I read it with an eye of who is the writer, when was it written and who is the audience. What I remember when reading is the authors always had a purpose to their writing and that purpose was normally the exaltation of Israel. When Israel succeeded it was because God was behind them, when they failed it was because God deserted them. The writers were biased. When we read that God committed genocide was that God did that or that’s the perception of the author in what really happened? Could it be history written from the Israelite worldview?

      The New Testament is somewhat different, especially when I read about Jesus. I admit that because of the way I was brought up I still have many “superstitious” beliefs. I cannot say that I understand how ideas of “salvation” and “redemption” work. I can say that I see Jesus as one who forgives, cares for the poor, ignores gender constructs of men/women, feeds the hungry, etc. In a way I believe that salvation is not something that happens after death but a way of life that happens when you start to care for fellow humans.

      I still hold some of the “crazy spaghetti monster” beliefs. I admit that but I think people in Churches are now so caught up about “death and hell” that they simply forget there’s a life to live here and now that can benefit others.

      Hope that helps.

      1. “I cannot say that I understand how ideas of ‘salvation’ and ‘redemption’ work.”

        Think of Jesus as the ultimate scapegoat, in the original sense of the word (Lev. 16).

        /@

        1. Exactly correct.

          (As a former Christian. This was emphasized all the time. I really never understood the appeal of it …)

      2. Thanks jpete79 for your patient answering.

        I don’t deny that Jesus, assuming his existence, was largely a nice person with a sense of morality ahead of that of his contemporaries in the area. But his creation of hell as means of punishing those who don’t admit his position of creator is off-putting to me. I’d think slightly highly of Christianity had the teaching of the religion been that the believers will go to heaven in the end while the non-believers continue whatever they’ve been doing on earth.

  24. As you said, a Christian Christian. I feel that the time is not long when the writer drops the final cloak, and stands with ordinary, naked humans, who may not know much, but whose knowledge is verifiable.

    1. From an interview of Glenn Gould by Glenn Gould about Glenn Gould:

      g. g. : I simply feel that you, Mr. Gould, have either never permitted yourself to savour the—
      G. G. : —ego gratification ?
      g. g. : —the privilege, as I was about to say, of communicating with an audience—
      G. G. : —from a power-base ?
      g. g. : —from a proscenium setting in which the naked fact of your humanity is on display, unedited and unadorned.
      G. G. : Couldn’t I at least be allowed to display the tuxedoed fallacy, perhaps?

      1. I don’t understand.

        You’re being witlessly witty, or wittylessly witless…

        I don’t know, and don’t really care.

        1. Precisely. It’s a classic:
          “What is the difference between ignorance and apathy?”
          “I don’t know and I don’t care.”

          Not for your benefit then, but for Jim P, who has shown enough courage and honesty to deserve our respect:

          I find the notion that he may be able to stand with “ordinary, naked humans” only after divesting himself of the “final cloak” unspeakably self-righteous. As if he were obliged to embark on a cathartic pilgrimage to the illuminated company of the perfect ones who have shed all remnants of superstition and delusion and attained the unsullied essence of the human condition.

          Good luck, Jim, and may your quest never end.

  25. Thanks for speaking out, Jim. You obviously put a lot of thought into your letter, and your eloquence and politeness shined through. Best of luck on the MIT course and reading your new autographed book!

  26. Christians can’t believe in hominid evolution or that things died before Adam sinned because it nullifies the purpose for Christianity. The last Adam died according to the scriptures and was raised on the third day according to the scriptures to reverse death that was started by the first Adam.

  27. Am really tired today don’t even know why.Came across this email seen how long it was and thought this will really put me to sleep.Started reading and enjoyed all of it and the posts that follow. Awake now have to go watch the Tyson video.The only Tyson I know is Mike but most folks know him.

  28. Hey look; a rational, sane, Christian! I have to say, this has to be pretty true. I fell sincere, for Jim. Same experience with me. 🙂

  29. Thank you, Jim! If all religious behavior were compatible with freedom of religion and didn’t encroach on others, I think few would bother criticizing the phenomena.

    I found something odd however:

    Most research shows that Genesis (and most of the Old Testament in general) was an oral mythology that was spoken down from generation to generation. Those tales were likely composed much later in history when Israel was ruled by Persia and later exiled by Babylon.

    It is very hard to find out religious history, foremost because the religious have interest to block the research in order to protect their myths. One paramount method is to institute self-professed religious “historians” (“biblical history”) and “archaeologists” (“biblical archaeologists”), which combines blocking with attempts to shore up belief by finding consistent patterns.

    In the case of abrahamistic religions however the earliest archaeological finds that are unarguably abrahamistic, i.e. of the religion itself, are the Dead Sea Scrolls. The hides (mostly) have carbon date 2-sigma ranges that are most consistent with an origin after the hellenistic conquests in the general area of what was then Palestine. (A term that I find less historically confusing than Israel, a kingdom part of Palestine that the Qumran region find didn’t originate from.)

    They do show that were there no early discernible sectarian splits between what could be recognized as judaism and christianism specifically. And it seems even religious scholarshave started to agree: “Daniel Boyarin proposes a revised understanding of the interactions between nascent Christianity and Judaism in late antiquity which views the two “new” religions as intensely and complexly intertwined throughout this period. Boyarin writes: “for at least the first three centuries of their common lives, Judaism in all of its forms and Christianity in all of its forms were part of one complex religious family, …”.

    Given that much of the mythological material is a mixture of egyptian, semite and greek, that part of the Dead Sea Scrolls were greek in origin, that the later christian sect material has greek roots (“Greek primacy” theory), and as some like Ben Goren, a regular visitor on this site, sees an ideological frame of greek syncretic paganism merging the disparate myths, the roots in the adversarial aftermath of the hellenistic conquest seems a given to me. (Not a historian, mind. But then again, there is so little actual history done as of yet.)

    The obvious source area would be Alexandria, don’t you think?

    1. Many Palestine coastal cities from Tyre (phoenician, i.e. canaanite) to Gaza (semite) were ransacked due to resistance to Alexander personally, as he desperately needed his back covered before marching onto the threat and goal of Persia. The survivors ended up as dissatisfied inhabitants of Alexanders engineered city.

    2. Alexandria were equally divided between greeks, egyptians and palestinians, which are known to have fought over supremacy of its segregated quarters. There survivors, military, alexandrian scholars and merchants made a great social melding pot.

    3. The early christian sects most likely originated from Alexandria, which hosted the first christian riots and pope both and made an excellent source of the rapid Mediterannean spread. The nearby Palestine was the area where the first archaeological evidence of the religious family were found.

    If Persia and Babylon would have been involved in the abrahamistic roots, why don’t we see much of any of their mythology in it? Especially since the other roots are so prominently displayed. (Eg the “Moses” figure is a common egyptian myth IIRC.)

    And the dating of the first religious finds would predict why that didn’t happen: the religious family originated much later.

  30. Well done Jim P! I’m sure you will read your copy of WEIT and learn a lote from it. It’s the most concise, best best written book on the evidence for evolution. I’m about to read it for a third time (or is it 4th time?) 🙂

  31. jpete79:- Well done sir. Hope to see more of you here in the future. Perhaps when *we* [which includes you now 🙂 ] get visited by members of hit-and-run wing of the Christian certainty brigade?

    One thing I’ve noticed about the Christians I’ve interacted with on the net is none of them [as far as I can tell] realise that most [a guess] atheists were believers at some point ~ for them “atheist” equates to the spawn of Satan ~ the God Goggles prevent them from seeing that atheists often have journeyed to get to their position. The same journey ~ ahem ~ that you’re on… 🙂

    1. Michael:

      I will gladly stand with you when the members of the Christian certainty brigade show up.

      While they don’t consider me “Satan’s spawn,” I have already been told that I have been blinded by him (so I guess I’m not too far behind) because of my acceptance of evolution (among other things).

      Sincerely,
      Jim

    2. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians think that atheists who “de-converted” from Christianity were never really Christians in the first place.

      Or they may have a “you are/were not a Christian because you’re not like me” mentality.

  32. “…(in fact, I am still an amateur in this area as well but have been taking the MIT online open-course for biology to start learning).”

    Some people seem to think MOOC’s have no merit or usefulness but I think they fail to see how important they really are.

    There are many science courses being offered online and this can only be a good thing specially for those of us who don’t have a formal education in the sciences but happen to love science.

    Jim seems to have the motivation to learn and I think that is great.

    I have to thank Jerry for introducing me -and probably others- to Coursera last year when he recommended the Genetics and Evolution course. Have been hooked since then.

    Nothing gets rid of religion and superstition better than a good dose of tasty science.

    1. Suri,

      Well after a Biology starter, I would hope to continue into understanding Genetics better. However, due to time and life – I can only take baby steps.

      -Jim

      1. I hope you are loving your online learning experience (like I do 😀 ) and I wish you luck buddy.

  33. I have to take issue with your heading “A Christian Christian”. Since you seem to mean “A good Christian” (rather than a simple tautology) it buys into some Christians’ self-serving myth that a Christian is a good person by definition. It is in fact the corollary of the No True Scotsman fallacy, by which the Adolf Hitlers and Fred Phelpses of Christianity can be defined out of the religion. They were also Christian Christians.

  34. Great letter, Jim. As you continue your quest, you might like to read “The End of Biblical Studies”, by Hector Avalos. An atheist Professor of Religion at Iowa, he started out in life as a child evangelist!
    –Joe, ex-monk

  35. Well, I have enjoyed the discussion and comments today. Thank you all for the wonderful dialog and the welcoming attitude. I will make sure to continue letting you know how my walk is going!

    Sincerely,
    Jim

  36. JC are you sure we haven’t been punk’d? I read jpete79’s comments, and they have a very familiar odor.

    1. To what purpose? It’s usually constructive (not to mention charitable) to take a poster’s statements of their own views as genuine, unless there’s some reason to suspect otherwise.

      I could doubtless log on to an evangelical website and pretend to be a fundamentalist, but what would that prove or achieve?

      I think pete79’s sincere and I wish him well.

    2. Cremno, I assure you that there is no prank in this. I would love to show it to you somehow.

      As stated in my letter its a saddening fact that people are willing to prank and lie to each other as a means to an end. Christians have been plenty guilty of this. It has become even more difficult due to the era of anonymity that websites and blogs create.

      Also, what are the reasons people have come here to dupe others in the past? Professor Coyne did say that it has happened and asked for proof of my authenticity to which I provided my Facebook accout name, where I lived, a little of my family life, and even my sister’s workplace (as a research scientist testing on Alzheimer’s).

      I guess I am naive in that I have no idea what benefit it has to lie about something like that.

      One of the reasons that my comments maybe difficult to understand is probably because over the last year I have really been trying to figure them out and if/how I can believe in certain things.

  37. The letter reads sincere to me. Jim sounds like a decent and thoughtful person who is trying to understand the world just like the rest of us. Jim, kudos and I wish you the best!

  38. Jim, thank you for the thoughtful letter and apologies. I cringe at the thought of some of those responses from the Appalachian State student body. The ignorance is sad…and hopefully something we can work toward remedying in the church.

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