Liberal Christian rag: creationism and evolution are “competing myths”

June 12, 2011 • 5:44 am

Is evolution a “myth”?  Not according to any definition of “myth” that I can readily find.  The Oxford English Dictionary gives these as the first two definitions:

A traditional story, typically involving supernatural beings or forces, which embodies and provides an explanation, aetiology, or justification for something such as the early history of a society, a religious belief or ritual, or a natural phenomenon.

A widespread but untrue or erroneous story or belief; a widely held misconception; a misrepresentation of the truth. Also: something existing only in myth; a fictitious or imaginary person or thing.

Maybe it could qualify under the third definition, “A person or thing held in awe or generally referred to with near reverential admiration on the basis of popularly repeated stories (whether real or fictitious),” although that’s stretching it.  Evolution is a scientific theory and it’s true. It’s not fictional, as most people (and dictionaries) construe myths, nor does it enjoy “reverential admiration on the basis of popularly repeated stories”.  If evolution is a myth in this last sense, so is gravity.

Nevertheless, in a new article in the online magazine Religion Dispatches, “Creationism and evolution are competing ‘myths’:  creation science as mythic discourse.” Kelly E. Hayes finds it useful to couch these incompatible paradigms as “myths” because, she claims, this sheds light on how they function in American society.  Hayes is Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis and an adjunct in gender studies and Africana studies, while Religion Dispatches describes itself as “a daily online magazine dedicated to the analysis and understanding of religious forces in the world today, highlighting a diversity of progressive voices and aimed at broadening and advancing the public conversation.”

When a postmodernist addresses evolution in a “progressive” religious magazine, you expect an earful of nonsense, and that’s pretty much what you get: an overblown article loaded with the usual pomo words like “privileged” and “paradigmatic,” and sentences like this:

Since myth is more than just a coding device through which important information is conveyed but is also an act by which social groupings are constituted, at stake in the debates among defenders of each narrative are not only these structural conflicts but the different social arrangements that each narrative invokes and authorizes.

But on to the content. The thesis of this longish essay can be described briefly: evolution and creationism function as incompatible “myths” that unite their supporters but divide the disciplines.  This means the science/faith “war” is likely to continue, and if scientists want to win they’ll have to do something different.

As H. L. Mencken once observed in another context, this is a penny’s worth of sense wrapped in a bale of polysyllables.  And in my characterization above, I agree with the last sentence but not the first.  Evolution is not a “myth,” even in the sense that Kelly means.  But yes, if we want to vanquish creationism, we have to do more than just promulgate the “myth” of evolution.  Kelly suggests no solutions, but of course the only one that will really work is to loosen the grip of religion on Americans.  My theory about why Kelly goes to such lengths to push such a mundane thesis is twofold: she wants to devalue evolution by putting it in a category with faith (granted, she sort of admits that evolution is probably true), and she wants to pad her c.v. by trying to say something new.

Here’s why Kelly sees evolution and creationism as myths (she frames much of her narrative around Kentucky’s Creation Museum and an upcoming project in the same state, the Ark Experience):

Rather than ridicule or dismiss the Ark Encounter and its theme park sibling the Creation Museum, it’s useful to see them as examples of mythic discourse, using the definition that historian of religions Bruce Lincoln proposed in his book Discourse and the Construction of Society. Myth, Lincoln contends, is most productively understood not as a false story, but as a narrative that has both authority and credibility for a particular audience, for whom it functions as a paradigmatic truth. A particular type of discourse, myth constructs and naturalizes its authority by appealing to some sacred or transcendent realm that is ostensibly beyond the petty interests of individuals. Unlike most other types of discourse, myth is able to engender shared feelings of belonging and purpose among its audience, making it an effective sociopolitical instrument.

So she goes wrong from the outset.  Yes, both religion and evolution have authority and credibility for their adherents, but scientists and rationalists don’t see evolution as appealing to a “sacred or transcendent realm”.  It’s a scientific theory, for crying out loud! If evolution is such a realm, then we might as well also count astronomy, quantum mechanics, and mathematics as myths.  As an evolutionist, my only sense of “belonging” is to a group that accepts the theory, and it doesn’t particularly give me a purpose—except to battle those who try to prevent it from being taught.  The discipline and its findings often fill me with wonder and amazement, but I don’t see that as entering the realm of the “sacred and transcendent.”

Now Hayes does recognize the baleful implications of claiming that evolution is a “myth,” but circumvents them by some fancy but unpersuasive argument:

One could legitimately object that by treating evolution as a myth I effectively concede one of the major claims of the creationist movement: that evolution and creationism are equally persuasive and thus are equally valid understandings of the natural world. To this I would argue that insofar as science itself does not mystify its claims by appeal to a superhuman realm it is not a mythic discourse in the same way as creationism. However, the popular understanding of evolution and the kinds of claims that proponents make about it invest evolution (and by extension the scientific method) with a set of transcendent moral values that, strictly speaking, lie outside of science proper. For example, some argue that because science, as a discipline of logic, empirical investigation, and rigorous testing, is superior to blind faith, evolution teaches the moral imperative to think and question rather than simply accept the claims of received tradition. This claim invests evolution with a set of values that have sociopolitical implications and that mobilize sentiments of affiliation (among proponents of evolution) and estrangement (from proponents of the creationist narrative). In what follows, I hope to show how treating what I am calling the “evolutionist narrative” and the “creationist narrative” as examples of myth (as Lincoln defined it) is useful for thinking about the ways that specific groups appeal to these narratives in practice.

Wrong again.  Who among evolutionary biologists or their supporters says that the field is automatically associated with “transcendent moral values”? That is a claim creationists make about evolution: we’re atheistic, materialistic, cold and scientistic, approving of might-makes-right and so on.  And it’s simply ridiculous to say that evolution “teaches the moral imperative to think and question rather than simply accept the claims of received tradition.” First of all, that’s not an inherent imperative of evolution,  it’s is a methodology that, we have found, is the only reliable way to find out the truth about the universe.  If you don’t practice it, you don’t find out anything.

And it is a moral imperative? Certainly not.  Any scientist who didn’t think, question, and use rational methods of study wouldn’t be seen as “immoral”; he’d be seen as stupid and misguided.  Rationality is not a moral imperative, it is a tool in all empirical studies.  If that makes evolution a “myth”, then so is dentistry, oil exploration, medicine, physiology, air conditioning repair, and plumbing.  Any plumber who accepted on faith his client’s diagnosis of a leak, rather than following the water himself, wouldn’t last very long.  This kind of categorizing is simply something Hayes does, as an academic pomo, to squeeze out something slightly different from everybody else.

But enough.  Hayes goes on to insist that these “myths” are in eternal conflict because a). science can’t address creationism and b). we don’t want to, because that would dignify it:

Such an approach helps address why AiG [Answers in Genesis, who built the Creation Museum] and its sympathizers continue to insist that their literalist interpretation of the biblical creation account is scientifically accurate, despite the fact that any claim about supernatural agency, by definition, can be neither proved nor disproved by science. Indeed, part of the reason that scientists (and other supporters of evolution) have been loath to publicly challenge such assertions is that creationist claims so clearly lie beyond the purview of science that to respond to any suggestion otherwise would dignify an absurdity. So, then, why do Ken Ham and his colleagues persist in advocating the seemingly untenable position that the Genesis story of creation is science and not theology? This is precisely where Lincoln’s notion of myth is helpful in understanding how narratives function, not only as explanatory frameworks but as ideological mechanisms that construct certain kinds of social relations by eliciting powerful sentiments of affiliation or estrangement.

Ah, the old “science can’t touch the supernatural” canard!  The stuff about supernatural claims being refractory to being proven or disproven by science is, of course, pure nonsense.  Science has disproved the supernatural claims that the earth was created by God 6,000 years ago, that there are no transitional forms, that all life was created instantly, that we all descend literally from two human beings who lived at the same time, and so on.  In fact, later on in her piece Hayes implicitly admits that science has falsified creationist claims: she says “Simply put, the evolutionist narrative functions as an established myth [she means “truth” here but won’t say it], while the creationist version holds a lesser status—although it may be authoritative for some, it not not generally accepted as a credible account of past events” [she means “it’s false”].  Why? Because the supernatural claims of creationism have been disproven.  As we all know by now, any empirical claims that derive from supernatural assumptions are manifestly within the realm of science, and their falsification erodes the veracity of the supernatural.

And scientists are “loath” to publicly challenge creationist claims?  Has Hayes been living in Siberia? What have I, Dawkins, Kenneth Miller, the NCSE, and hundreds of other scientists and educators been doing for the past few decades? Hint: not twiddling our thumbs about creationists or their attempts to teach religion in the science classroom.

I don’t see where notions of “myth” are of any help here at all; in fact, I don’t see the usefulness of shoehorning science into that category along with religion. (Religion is, of course, a “myth” in nearly every sense.)  All it does is give us a fancy way of saying that the scientific truth of evolution is repugnant to the faithful because it attacks their false beliefs about the universe. And we already knew that.

In the end, by lumping together evolution and science as “myths,” saying that both come with moral imperatives, and arguing that science cannot address claims about the supernatural, Hayes not only gives a misleading picture of science, but obfuscates rather than clarifies the science-religion controversy.  She could have conveyed the true situation in just a few paragraphs, but nobody would have published it.  And what’s her conclusion? Simply this:

The forthcoming Ark Encounter and the presence of other creationist museums in Arkansas, Texas, California and Florida suggests that the war is far from over. It remains to be seen whether the leaders of the creationist movement will be able to effectively mobilize enough American voters to bring about the kinds of sociopolitical changes for which their paradigmatic model provides a superhuman charter. It is clear, however, that supporters of evolution would do well to implement a new strategy if they wish to counter these challenges to their preferred narrative’s authoritative status.

Now what would that strategy be?  To suck up to believers, as accommodationists suggest? As Hayes makes clear, that won’t work, for their “myth” is strong and magnetic.  Create a “rock stars of evolution” campaign, to lure the faithful using charismatic scientists?  Doesn’t seem likely.  Wait—I have one: dispel religious myths by showing how ludicrous and false they are! If that works, the challenges to our “preferred narrative” will simply vanish.

h/t: Diane G.

66 thoughts on “Liberal Christian rag: creationism and evolution are “competing myths”

  1. I think that one of the things that scientists and science communicators need to do is to dispel the notion that science is about “absolute certainty,” and that contingency is a bad thing.

    Creationism succeeds because it presents a false “absolute certainty” based on authoritative narrative, which is why AIG demands that any science that doesn’t coincide with the literal interpretation of Genesis is wrong no matter how good the science may be.

    Science doesn’t provide absolute certainty, it provides high probability that the relationships between cause and effect are accurate to a usable level, but can still be proven wrong with new data and better analysis. This doesn’t provide comfort to those who seek absolute certainty, of course; it just leads to a better understanding of the universe and everything in it.

    Creationists like to point to Hume’s problems with induction and say “See, you don’t know so much, therefore what I say is just as likely to be true as what you say.”

    I am not absolutely certain that biological evolution has been taking place for nigh on 4 billion years, but I am satisfied with a high enough degree of probability that it has been that I trust the work that is being done by scientists using what they know about the various evolutionary processes; as much as I am confident that because the earth revolves there will be a sunrise tomorrow (even if clouds will block my view I don’t need to “see” it to know that it will happen.

    I think that at various levels, people need to understand the basics of the philosophy of science to understand why creationism is crock and evolution is the best descriptor for the reasons that life continues to diversify on a planet of continual change.

    1. I think that one of the things that scientists and science communicators need to do is to dispel the notion that science is about “absolute certainty,” and that contingency is a bad thing.

      I think all that’s really necessary is to put the levels of certainty in context.

      The Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection is somewhere between “dropped rocks fall down” and “the Sun will rise in the East tomorrow morning” in terms of certainty. There are error bars on all three, but not enough to warrant notice by anybody except for armchair philosophers.

      In contrast, Biblical Creationism is somewhere between “sail too far and you’ll fall off the edge of the Earth” and “the Moon is made of green cheese.” Again, an armchair philosopher could make a case for the possibility of any of those three not actually being zero, but you’d have to be a complete and total blithering fucking idiot to give any of them any sort of credence.

      For reference, Inelegant Design is somewhere between Biblical Creationism and “sail too far and you’ll fall off the edge of the Earth.”

      Cheers,

      b&

    2. I agree with you Mike as far as that goes, but it is insufficient. The problem is that certainty versus uncertainty focus, although important, is too narrow. The reality of uncertainty is an unavoidable consequence of adopting a weight of the evidence approach to belief justification. Doing that: Adopting an approach of following the overall weight of the evidence, is the key. Finding evidence, evaluating relevance, evaluating direction, evaluating breadth and depth, evaluating consistency, etc. Once you recognize this distinction between mere assertions and genuine explanations and the central role of evidence to making this distinction, you can’t follow mere tradition/intuition/assertion anymore. Appeals based on those approaches fail because they are recognizable as being lame.

    3. In my limited reading I find that scientists, and others with scientific insight, who write for the general public do an adequate job of making the absence of absolute certainty clear. It might help if, when appropriate, scholars writing for a more informed audience would emphasize the uncertainty of findings.

      That said, no one and nothing can alter the cognitive arteriosclerosis resident within a fanatic, religious and otherwise.

      My handle, freedtochoose, draws comments from many causes, but the most common is a misreading of it as freetochoose which I am not. Being freed to choose means discarding prejudice and overcoming ignorance which is my mission, limited by my nature, personal community and ability to comprehend.

      The basic problem with the article is its premise. Neither Creationism nor Evolution are myths. The first is a lie and the second is science (proofs with some level of uncertainty ready inquiry).

  2. I have this hypothesis that accounts for gibberish like “evolution and creationism are both myths”: most people of average intelligence or greater get a little frisson of excitement whenever they make a connection between two concepts, but there is no corresponding sense of delight when refuting or contradicting those connections. The greater the “portentiousness” of the things connected, the greater the thrill of “discovery.”

    So some people who go through their lives making connections between religious concepts and anything vaguely similar: scientists are priests, doctors are shamans, banks are cathedrals, research is mythology, lab coats are holy vestments…they spend their time practically stoned on the connections they make, hopping from one link to the next, never bothering to validate their assertions because there’s no buzz of discovery in doing so.

    Either that or it’s really easy to score good weed on liberal arts campuses.

    1. most people of average intelligence or greater get a little frisson of excitement whenever they make a connection between two concepts

      Yes. Yes! And not just when drawing a parallel, but also when not deigning to actually take a position based on a genuine evaluation of the information available. They suppose wishy-washy waffling with the Argument to Moderation is indicative of an oh so superior intellect.

  3. This is the ‘If I can’t have her, nobody can!’ approach.

    By saying ‘what you believe is just as silly as what I believe!’ to people who accept evolution, the author is rationalizing clinging to her secret faith.

    I know that game. It used to be one of my favorite ways to defend my own faith (when I had one).

  4. The problem with this kind of potential drivel is that Dr. Hayes is using her own set of definitions for words like “myth” that only her own colleagues will recognize. I can’t even characterize it as truly drivel because of those same privileged definitions. I am made illiterate in my own native tongue!

    They don’t care that it makes their argument hard to understand by anybody that does not automatically understand what they mean, and worse, pointing out that creationism is factually wrong will only be seen as “negative to the discourse” and “polemic”.

    Ugh.

    1. Ditto. One of my issues with pomo discourse (if I may use a word they have ruined) is that it is so unnecessarily laden with a specialized vocabulary. It borrows words from standard english (discourse, paradigm, privilege) but it doesn’t really use them the same way. They seem all-powerful, imbued with absolute meaning. Most of the words seem to point to complicated abstract concepts- the details of which are not laid out for us. (I understand hegemony in the standard sense, but when they say HEGEMONY!!!111, they mean something unique.)

      The actual meaning underneath the endless jargon usually turns out to be not worth the trouble of decoding, so I’ve stopped bothering.

      1. Sadly, what you’re describing are now features, not bugs, of academic writing in the humanities. Give ’em the old razzle dazzle!

      2. Completely agree. I’ve analyzed writing of this type for years, and by the pound. This is bad writing, the purpose of which is to confuse and make murky, at least as much as it pretends to clarify. It’s really intolerable.

        Major props that Dr. Coyne has the patience and fortitude to continue with it.

  5. A blast from the past: The Postmodern Essay Generator.

    This automatic pomo paper writer is implemented with a little piece of code called the Dada Engine—it generates a random tree structure, randomly populates it from a pre-defined library of pomo nonsense, and voilá! An automatically generated pomo paper indistinguishable from the “real” thing.

    I’ve often thought that it would be a quick job for someone with a little too much available time to create a Dada Engine database to automatically generate bullshit theological and creationist essays. Again, it would tough to tell the apart from the “real” theological and creationist bullshit.

    1. It’s hard to get the Dada engine working nowadays 🙁

      The project was never really completed, the grammar language is still buggy (and poorly documented) and, since it was last updated in 2000, you occasionally get library incompatibilities when attempting to compile it on modern systems (though nothing major).

      Honestly, today, we’d be better off writing what amounts to a reverse Bayesian spam filter – the reason why your inbox is not full of spam is because we’ve developed filters that can take a look at good messages vs spam messages, and automatically create “rules” that reject spam and accept ham (as it’s called). You could totally use the same techniques in reverse, by examining “ham” documents and creating rules to generate “spam” documents (and I’m sure some enterprising spammers have attempted to do just that, in fact).

      This way, not only would you not have to hand-craft the grammar for a Dada Engine document, but your pomo spam generator would mostly get better the more pomo you fed in to it.

  6. It occurs to me that the author may have a point, but a lot of it is buried in language that is religious in nature,

    For example, I could see describing evolutionary biology as transcendent because well, it tells us where we came from. It’s a tremendously powerful theory, but… well, it’s not part of my work as a scientist, but I have strong feelings about this theory (and not just that ‘it’s right’ and ‘it’s a cornerstone of biology and everyone should learn it’). I mean, we’re related to everything on Earth, either nearly or distantly? How cool is that! Granted, it’s cool because it’s true and important, but its a bit more personal than the time I finally grokked special relativity (another true and important theory, which is still pretty cool).

    So, if you wanted to talk about the lay public, I could see the emotional appeal being important in studying how they react to science versus religion.

  7. There is a culturally-popular version of evolution that I think does qualify as myth, namely the old progressive ladder-of-life conception (which basically just took over the older Chain Of Being). Humans are “higher” than apes who are “higher” than….etc…bacteria, and it was inevitable that the last would eventually give rise to the first. Fortunately, more recent popularizations (Gould being the loudest voice I can think of off-hand) have rebutted that view.

    Also: I don’t have a big problem regarding thinking and questioning as moral imperatives — ISTM it follows directly from valuing truth over falsehood, and recognizing we have no direct access to infallible truth. But that’s not a consequence of “evolution” (if anything the reverse).

  8. I think we are going to have to start paying you ‘danger money’ if you are going to keep on reading screeds of Teh Stoopid for our entertainment.

  9. You may be slightly misreading her. I think one of the themes of her piece is that creationists don’t believe in creationism because its true, they believe in it because it gives meaning to their lives, fulfills social functions, acts as a link to a community they value, etc. This would suggest that, at least at some level, demonstrating that creationism is false will be less effective than you would expect if you were not aware of these issues.

    A few other comments by her get close to a grain of truth, though they often veer aside at the last moment. Evolution obviously isn’t invested with a set of moral values about truth, questioning accepted wisdom, etc. However, I think its fair to say that there really is a cultural difference in values between, say, Gnus and Creationists. And the difference in values both includes issues like valuing truth, questioning accepted wisdom, following epistemological methods with track records of effectiveness, etc. And that is directly related to why Gnus are fascinated by evolution, and Creationists are fascinated by magic boats. The interconnectedness of how people think about the world then dictates that many people will associate evolution with those values, both amongst the Gnus, and amongst the Creationists.

    1. Agreed. I don’t think that Hayes is really suggesting that evolutionary theory and creationism are comparable in any way. She doesn’t, though, seem to recognize the cultural value of ridicule, which I guess is to be expected from someone writing for a religious website. I was confused by this:

      It is clear, however, that supporters of evolution would do well to implement a new strategy if they wish to counter these challenges to their preferred narrative’s authoritative status.

      What would she have us do? Build museums with frightening galleries pointing out how religion poisons everything?

    2. I think creationists believe in creation because they imagine themselves “saved” for their beliefs and they fear they’ll be tortured forever if they don’t believe and inflict these beliefs upon their loved ones.

      How can science compete with a mind virus like that?

  10. “…one of the major claims of the creationist movement: that evolution and creationism are equally persuasive”

    In what universe do creationaries concede that evolution is as persuasive as their rubbish?

    1. When they accuse rationalists of believing in the “religion” of “Darwinism,” as the most obvious example. I’m sure you can springboard off that to think of many more.

      Cheers,

      b&

    2. The one where they then go off into bullshit about how it’s not about evidence, but which “assumptions” you interpret the evidence under, as if believing or not believing the Bible was an arbitrarily chosen axiom. It’s most amusing how absolutists, when losing the argument, suddenly go all epistemic-relativist on you and cuddle up to the pomos.

  11. Once again, an argument the true strength of which can best be evaluated by replacing the words ‘evolution’ and ‘creationism’ with the word ‘heliocentrism’ and ‘terracentrism.’

  12. The ‘Theory’ of Religion:

    We live in the world we experience physically.
    There’s another world we can’t see.
    We can’t go to or from that world.
    You can make up magic spells which somehow affect beings in that other world.
    Somehow the affected beings in that other world can then affect this world for your benefit.

    (And evolution is a ‘revelation’!)

    1. Oh! I want to secularize it!! May I?

      “We live in the world we experience physically.”
      (I hold that statement to be self-evident.)
      “There’s another world we can’t see.”
      (That “other world” consists of the past and the future– before we are born and after we die.)
      “We can’t go to or from that world.”
      (We are bound by “time”; one cannot travel through time as though it were separate from space.)
      “You can make up magic spells which somehow affect beings in that other world.”
      (As we learn more about the world we live in, the past becomes less shrouded and our foresight becomes more reliable.)
      “Somehow the affected beings in that other world can then affect this world for your benefit.”
      (We are here because of everything that was already here and has already happened.)

  13. I think that Kelly Hayes has a point.

    All societies tell origin stories about how we got here, then use those stories to explain what we do and what we should do. These stories shape our world view.

    Stories that function this way may include true history at the level of the family (e.g. the ancestor’s purchase of the family farm with proceeds from the Gold Rush) or the level of the group (e.g. exile from Ireland during the great famine) or may be fictional.

    Both the evolution stories and the Biblical creation stories FUNCTION to create world views. They FUNCTION to help us understand ourselves, to understand what we can do, and even to help decide what we should do. They FUNCTION as origin myths.

    They are not, however, equally mythical. Evolution and Biblical creation stories are not equally true!

    It is also important to realize that people who read the Biblical creation stories as history do so for reasons that are really important (their whole world view!) and have nothing to do with the quality of the science.

    (As a young science teacher I assumed that just teaching the science more clearly would resolve the conflict. I was so wrong.)

      1. Surely it’s obvious that ‘an evolution “story”’ is the narrative of evolution, from the first replicators to the present diversity of life, and, more importantly, from the perspective of framing evolution as myth, the narrative of our particular lineage from early apes, early monkeys, early primates, early mammals, mammal-like “reptiles”, early amphibians, Tiktaalik, etc., etc.

        It is the story of our origins.

        So, Hayes does have a point, but wraps it up in so much pomo gobbledygook that she all but suffocates it.

        /@

  14. Bravo! You tore Hayes at least six new orafices I loved the way you showed nearly every sentence is flawed nonsense

  15. I’m not sure I agree with your claim that rationality is not a moral imperative. In fact, I’m working on a blog post that argues the opposite. Rational thinking allows us to see the world as it really is, and act accordingly, which in turn affects how we treat other people. There are definitely moral implications there.

    1. Yes, I think I would agree with you.

      It (naïvely?) seems that it is morally right to be rational, or at least morally wrong to be irrational; in particular, to impose the results of your irrational beliefs on others. Isn’t that why we find religion so objectionable?

      /@

      1. Exactly. Although I do understand that it seems like two very different things to say that murder is immoral and being irrational is immoral, so that distinction might require some further thought.

        Or one can simply argue that, while irrationality is immoral, it’s *less* immoral than murder. I don’t have a problem with a moral gradient, as opposed to all immoral actions being equally immoral.

        1. “Or one can simply argue that, while irrationality is immoral, it’s *less* immoral than murder. I don’t have a problem with a moral gradient, as opposed to all immoral actions being equally immoral.”

          Yes! Precisely. To claim that all wrongs are equally wrong is a dogmatic position. To be rational (i.e. a “critical thinker”) is DEFINITELY better. I mean, it’s self-evident! These freakishly huge brains didn’t get here by accident! Evolution doesn’t make mistakes (though I will admit that some of its successes are rather temporary).

          If we have to claim similarity to religionists just to get them off our backs, so be it. Evolution works in mysterious ways, but at least it’s observable for crying out loud.

        2. I think the morality of irrationality has a gradient; some irrationality is harmless, even to the individual themself, but, clearly, irrational beliefs can lead people to commit murder.

          /@

          1. That’s a good refinement. Not only is irrationality less immoral than murder, but even some irrational actions are less immoral than others. Makes sense to me! 🙂

  16. Our host is the one who has gone off the rails today.

    To him, Evolution is a scientific theory.

    But the great mass of people who accept evolution don’t understand it in the same technical way that he does. Most of the people writing in favor of evolution on youtube and in blog comments would fail if give a test used as final examine in a graduate level biology course in evolution I certainly couldn’t, though I might do better than most biologists faced with a test on the Latin in Augustine’s Confessions). For them it is a story that validates their self-identity as as humanist, liberal, secular, and progressive, ins distinction to those backward fundamentalist hicks over there.

    1. Or maybe instead those who accept evolution simply trust the scientific method and the enterprise of science in general, since it’s given us things like airplanes and antibiotics and the Internet and canned food and fertilizer and plastic and…

    2. It’s no more necessary to have a graduate-level understanding of the Theory of Evolution by Random Mutation and Natural Selection to be extremely confident in the truth of the theory than it’s necessary to have a graduate-level understanding of astrophysics to be extremely confident in the truth of the geocentric model of the solar system.

      In three words: individuals reproduce inexactly.

      Unless you hold to an un-evidence theory that there is a platonic ideal of a species that somehow places bounds on the variation from one generation to another, everything you need to know to extrapolate all the rest of the Theory is contained in those three words.

      And, unless you wish to claim that you’re an exact copy of your parents or that you share no characteristics at all with them, the truth of the three words is unassailable.

      See? It’s not hard to understand.

      It’s pretty easy to independently verify, too — just make a trip to your nearest museum of natural history, and the staff there will fall over themselves with delight in showing you primary sources of evidence — just as the folks at your nearest planetarium would be thrilled to show you Venus’s phases and Jupiter’s moons through a telescope.

      Cheers,

      b&

    3. Yes, I see what you’re getting at. Evolution is true, but people find psychological meaning in that truth: They see a story that answers the question, “Where did I come from?” Does that give it the status of myth? Perhaps not, unless you’re a pomo scholar.

      Pace Ben’s comments about how easy it is to understand evolution, I think that a large number of people who accept evolution as true, possibly even a majority, have no better understanding of it than religionist critics. For example, a lot of science journalism on evolution smacks of teleology.

      /@

      1. Moreover, it doesn’t really matter to Hayes thesis that evolution is true and creationism is false. Clearly, people’s acceptance of one over the other isn’t predicated on the truth. Hayes might claim (wrongly, I think; but still consistently with her views), that to persuade people to accept evolution, evolution has to be a more compelling “myth”.

        But I agree with Jerry: The better way is to debunk and ridicule religious myths, rather than compete on their terms.

        /@

    4. It also is the truth and predicts new hypothesis– just like germ theory, gravity, atomic theory, and so forth. It builds upon that which works which is why our technology moves forward; whereas faith just spins it’s wheels fooling it’s followers in the same ways that people who believed the myths of yore were fooled.

    5. You could say that those who accept the moon landing and those who reject it as a hoax have competing myths too. Except one is right. We can make predictions about what sorts of things we could expect to see if either were true and what sorts of things might show it to be false– and then we could use science to find out that the moon hoax people are full of crap– just like those who imagine that evolution is a conspiracy theory and that god poofed life into existence as is.

      You don’t need to study astronomy to know astrology has no scientific merit… and the same for religious claims (and all other supernatural beliefs.)

      1. You don’t need to study astronomy to know astrology has no scientific merit

        And yet many people remain utterly convinced by astrology.

        Clearly, it satisfies emotional and psychological needs that scientific truth cannot.

        /@

  17. I’ve been hearing people use ‘myth’ in the Hayes-Lincoln sense for at least thirty years. It’s interesting that the OED doesn’t seem to have registered this usage yet, but it will eventually. Words acquire new meanings all the time, and dictionaries record them.

    As for noting resemblances between scientific theories and myth, that’s hardly new. There’s a section on ‘myth and science’ in the Britannica article on myth (on-line but gated):

    http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/400920/myth

    It mentions Paul Tillich and Karl Jaspers, both of whom died in the 1960’s, as thinkers who “have argued convincingly for a mythological dimension to all science.” The article points out some significant problems with the comparison, but also says, “Though it would perhaps be going too far to identify the images and concepts that make up a culture’s scientific sense of reality with myth, parallels between science and myth, as well as the presence of a mythological dimension to science, are generally reckoned to exist.”

    I hope it goes without saying that I’m not invoking the authority of Tillich, Jaspers or the Britannica to show that the comparison is a good one. All I’m saying is that it’s obviously been part of the conversation for quite a while, in fact by now it’s something of an old chestnut.

      1. SinSeeker:

        I know what each of those words mean individually, but when you put them together like that my brain hurts. 🙂

      1. Ok cool, I learned something new. Never knew there was an actual term to describe those who redefine words until they’re so vague and meaningless that anything can mean anything at all. I just knew that they irk me to no end!

  18. Hayes writes:

    Rather than ridicule or dismiss the Ark Encounter and its theme park sibling the Creation Museum, it’s useful to see them as examples of mythic discourse

    This is a good example of what I particularly detest about pomo. There’s no concern for reality. It’s so much more fun (and intellectual, too!) to spin these ridiculous yarns. Things like the Ark Encounter must be ridiculed. It needs to be demonstrated that religious craziness is harmful and won’t be tolerated.

    If we were to take the quasi Stockholm Syndrome thing going on in that quote seriously, we’d be digging our own graves. Perhaps literally!

    1. I suppose I could clarify: pomo generally doesn’t show concern for reality, but in this particular instance I mean ignoring what people are actually doing in the real world, their actual motivations, and the very real consequences of letting them do it.

      1. Hey don’t criticize Ken Ham, he’s only bilking gullible groups out of millions of dollars to build a massive theme part dedicated to myths like Noah’s Flood that have been literally proven false. That’s just an example of mythic discourse.

        By the way, I checked out the Ark Encounter site and they also are planning a recreation of the Tower of Babel. That’s interesting, I wonder how they plan to build it tall enough to reach the Firmament of Heaven? Will the top floors be pressurized? How will they handle geosynchronous orbit where people start to float in microgravity and then, even higher, where centripetal force glues them to the ceiling? And will they do this using only Bronze Age construction methods?

  19. Mooney imagines there’s evidence indicating that NA’s are screwing up science education because most college kids think the two are compatible.

    I did too in college; I just hadn’t thought very deeply on the subject:

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/intersection/2011/06/10/most-college-undergrads-question-science-religion-conflict

    It appears that the strategy of the accommodationist crowd is to confirm their biases and bash gnu atheists so that people will be in such a dither tsk-tsking the NA tone, they’ll fail to take noticed of the undiluted truth they are uttering.

    I think Jerry’s solution of critiquing faith as means of knowledge is the key to loosen the stranglehold religion had on logical thinking. You cannot teach the facts to someone who imagines themselves saved for believing a conflicting version of events. Faith based beliefs are no more compatible with science than pseudoscience and should be treated similarly.

    Only when rational people start rolling their eyes at the crazy claims of believers instead of giving them the impression that their magical beliefs deserve respect will progress occur. Faith ought really be equated with gullibility rather than treated as a virtue.

  20. She’s looking at it in the abstract. But calling it a myth is a bit of a stretch. It sounds like she wants to find another word for “narrative”. Well, she should have just stuck with “narrative”. Appointing evolution as a myth even for temporary literary cuteness tricks just makes her sound like a creationist. “Nanner nanner boo-boo, if I’m a myth then you’re a myth too, nyuck nyuck nyuck, waaaaaaa….” You guys know the creationist drill. “Waaa waaaa, I wanna baw-baw, poopity-poo.” (Okay so I’m quote-mining creationists slightly, but not by much.)

    1. You may be right that “myth” is wrong, but I think “narrative” doesn’t convey the emotional appeal and psychological resonance that these competing ideas have.

      See also Barbara’s and Helena Constantine’s comments.

      /@

      1. I haven’t read as much Plato as I’d like, but from my understanding his argument was that laypeople need myths to give them purpose, not that truth should be kept away from leaders and philosophers such as himself. His example was an invented myth designed to make members of a class-based society happy to labor in their respective classes. He was an elitist snob and far from perfect, that one.

        — Richard C, on the “Big fun: Miss USA pageant contestants to be asked about evolution!” thread

        That seems pertinent here.

        Although I think some laypeople and some leaders alike need, or at least desire, myths.

        Like Dumbo and his magic feather.

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  21. Postmodernist writers are so damn boring. There is no “life” in what they write. What ever happened to “pizzazz”? *yawn*

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