Jamal Khashoggi’s last words as he was murdered

This report from CNN (click on screenshot below), based on tapes made (we don’t know how) inside the Turkish consulate in Istanbul, clearly indicates that Turkish journalist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered very soon after he went inside the consulate to procure papers allowing him to get married.

Eventually we’ll get the whole transcript, but it won’t be pretty. The CNN report characterizes other stuff on the transcript:

Without any further dialogue, according to the source, the transcript indicates that several people set upon Khashoggi.

Noises follow, and very quickly Khashoggi is fighting for air. . .

. . . Despite his desperate pleas, the last discernible words the transcript records for Khashoggi are:

“I can’t breathe.”

The transcript notes more noises, and several more voices.

One of those voices is identified on the transcript by Turkish authorities as belonging to Dr. Salah Muhammad al-Tubaiqi, the head of forensic medicine at Saudi Arabia’s Interior Ministry, the source says.

Aside from Khashoggi and Mutreb, he is the only other voice identified by name on the transcript.

As the transcript continues, it is clear Khashoggi is not yet dead.

The transcript notes the noises that can be heard on the tape, almost in the manner that subtitles describe moments in movies where there is no dialogue.

“Scream.”

“Scream.”

“Gasping.”

Then, the transcript notes other descriptions.

“Saw.”

“Cutting.”

Tubaiqi is noted giving some advice to other people in the room, apparently to help them deal with the appalling task.

“Put your earphones in, or listen to music like me.”

. . . The transcript notes the sounds of Khashoggi’s body being dismembered by a saw, as the alleged perpetrators are advised to listen to music to block out the sound.

And, according to the source, the transcript suggests that a series of phone calls are made, briefing them on progress. were made to senior figures in Riyadh.

It’s not clear if Khashoggi was dismembered (yes, there are sawing sounds) before he was dead. I hope not.

There’s nothing on the transcript so far to prove that Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman ordered this, or knew about it, but really, can anyone believe he was out of the loop?  The head of forensic medicine at Saudi Arabia’s Interior Ministry was part of the murder squad, and how could that happen without the Prince’s knowledge?

Trump, of course, loves tyrants, especially murderous ones, so he won’t do anything about this. But maybe Congress will, because even Republicans see this as the straw that broke the camel’s back (excuse the cultural appropriation). bin Salman is a killer, and the U.S. shouldn’t do business with him.

67 Comments

  1. W.Benson
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:40 pm | Permalink

    I suggest regime change, and if this results in political chaos, all the better. I can’t imagine Saudi Arabia coming out the worse for it.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:57 am | Permalink

      Regime change is an excellent idea.When you have a corrupt nepotistic crook in charge then you should get Congre….oh…I see. You mean “Saudi regiemt change”?

    • Posted December 11, 2018 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

      The Saudis should do that for themselves. Giving them an external enemy to blame is not a good idea.

  2. Ken Kukec
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    There are reports that Trump’s son-in-law and top West Wing adviser, Jared Kushner, has been conferring with Mohammed bin Salman (who, months ago, was picked up on an intelligence intercept bragging that he had Kushner “in [his] pocket”) on what MbS should do to weather the blowback from the Khashoggi assassination.

    I recall nothing so chilling in our international affairs as the laughing, exuberant high-five greeting between MbS and Vladimir Putin at the recent G-20 conference in Argentina.

    My god, what has this nation come to? Is there no moral conscience left at the highest reaches of our government?

    • Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

      +1
      These are too interesting times.

    • Mark R.
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:19 pm | Permalink

      And where is the moral conscience of our population? Especially the religious ones.

      • Zetopan
        Posted December 13, 2018 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

        One should never confuse religion with good morals since they are very often orthogonal.

    • rickflick
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:27 pm | Permalink

      “Is there no moral conscience left at the highest reaches of our government?”

      I’m afraid not. At least not enough to make any difference.

    • Heather Hastie
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

      I agree Ken. The NZ govt continues to do a lot of business with these “people” too. In particular, we make a lot of money from their students at our universities. There’s even evidence some are allowed to pass courses via cheating and it’s glossed over so we keep getting their money. An absolute disgrace.

      Just they way they treat women, LGBTQ, non-Muslims esp. atheists, and political prisoners should be enough to make them international pariahs.

      I wonder how the world would treat Kim Jong Un if North Korea had huge reserves of easily accessible oil (cheap to extract) and were able to influence the world oil price the way the Saudis can.

      • Jenny Haniver
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

        The Saudis have invested heavily in US universities, establishing endowed chairs, buildings, and the like. They’ve been doing this for decades. I recently learned that they invested $300 million (not a typo) in a US dog walking service that is run like Uber; and is driving mom and pop dog walking services out of business.

        • murali
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 12:19 am | Permalink

          You are confused. There is nothing necessarily illegal about investing in a dog walking service. If it is driving some people out of business, tough luck. This is how business works — get used to it.

          • Gamall
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:30 am | Permalink

            Jenny did not claim it was illegal. Where did you get that from ?

        • Draken
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:28 am | Permalink

          All the more ironic since muslims think dogs are unclean.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:59 am | Permalink

      The short answer to your question is “no”.
      The longer answer to your question is “Are you joking? Have you been following American foreign policy for the last 50 years?”
      However, there may still be people at the top who wish to maintain the public appearence of probity and something that, from a distance, could be mistaken for a moral compass.
      Let’s see.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:45 am | Permalink

        Say what you will, this nation has never before done something like shrug off (and help cover up) the cold-blooded, brutal assassination of a permanent US resident and journalist for a US newspaper by a foreign power.

        We are setting new lows almost daily.

        • Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:58 am | Permalink

          …Tell that to Paul Guihard..
          But seriously, come off it. One of the things that makes Trump so odious is that he has pulled back the vinyl on the politics. Of course its always been about corruption, bribery, and recently things like the extra-judicial killings of the inconvenient (not to mention public torture of anyone who looked like they even might be a threat).
          But previously we could pretend that it wasn’t about money. Now we can’t.
          And that’s a problem because, as the really great military historians and tacticians know, above the tactical level is the strategic one, and above that is the moral one.
          Lose the moral fight–lose that sense of belief that your side is the good guys–and men wont fight for you any more (except for slaves–which you dont have any more and anyway they fight terribly, and mercenaries, and there aren’t that many psychopaths who will kill folk for money to go around).
          So, America has a problem.
          In his own hideous, childish, perverse way Trump is telling the truth (for a given value of “true”). And I don’t suppose America likes seeing it’s own face in the mirror too much.

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:34 am | Permalink

            “… above the tactical level is the strategic one, and above that is the moral one.

            Lose the moral fight–lose that sense of belief that your side is the good guys–and men wont fight for you any more …”

            I abjure your cynicism, but agree with you on the above — as does Clausewitz.

    • W.Benson
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:20 am | Permalink

      Re Vladimir Putin:
      It wasn’t Putin that connived with or consulted with MbS on the Khashoggi murder and Kahshoggi was not an anti-Putin journalist working for Russian newspaper. Why did MbS merit a high-five? I suspect that both are working (along with Trump) to weaken climate change accords so as to continue selling their petroleum products and Russia, as an outside guess, to gain the additional advantage of thawing out Siberia. If Putin gave a high-five, remember that Trump and his economic team — Steven Terner Mnuchin and Ivanka — met with MbS on the G-20 sidelines (see link) and who knows where later in the day.
      https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/12/218325/president-donald-trump-ivanka-saudi-arabia-crown-prince-g20-summit

      The best summary I’ve seen of the G-20 is here:
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/03/hiding-prince-bin-salman-g20-summit

  3. JW
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    That’s pretty horrific. From what CNN has published so far, I’m guessing that he was still alive when… Screaming and gasping from the pain of …

    Congress can take action, right? They’d just need a veto-proof number of supporters to get a law passed directing the Dept. of State et al. to do so and so, I’d have thought.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

      Congress can certainly enact Magnitsky-style sanctions against MbS and Saudi Arabia — and should.

      • rickflick
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

        If that requires Senate(GOP) approval(and I think it does), It’s not going to happen.

      • Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:00 pm | Permalink

        Yes, it should.

  4. Posted December 9, 2018 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

    Whoa. Talk about brutal. When this transcript first came out, it was hard to listen to.

  5. Randall Schenck
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

    The congress will act, no doubt about that. Even our spineless republicans are not buying Trump’s garbage on this. I also heard about the Jared Kurshner business. He called the prince to coach him on what stories to tell. This whole thing is just proof that Trump has been purchased by this guy and Putin.

    Trump had tried to keep his CIA chief from briefing congress but that did not work either. I think Saudi will have to get rid of this prince if they want to do business.

    • rickflick
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

      “Trump had tried to keep his CIA chief from briefing congress…”,
      It’s such a relief to see that the U.S. governmental structure is divided into many centers of authority. Otherwise, I’m afraid, there wouldn’t be any future.

  6. Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:38 pm | Permalink

    I wonder if Trump and Jared still have their earphones on?

  7. Christopher
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:40 pm | Permalink

    Since when does morality trump money in the Republican Party? Nothing will be done, more weapons will be sold and republicans will continue being complete and total lying hypocrites while democrats will continue being weak-willed putzs.

    • Randall Schenck
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:03 pm | Permalink

      I do not think you have been paying attention. Action will be taken by congress according to all the stories and news I am getting. Do your words have any evidence or are you just providing opinion?

      • Christopher
        Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

        I would dearly love to be proved incorrect. But, I am very much a cynic. What evidence is there that the US will crack down on our Saudi allies? When have we ever, even after 9/11, when the majority of terrorists came from Saudi Arabia? Yeah, it’s my opinion, but sadly it’s not an unwarranted one. I have absolutely nothing to prove to you, but I will be happy to be incorrect. It’s not a contest. It’s life and death and stupid, petty politics.

        • Randall Schenck
          Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:46 pm | Permalink

          Okay, just checking. I know things do not happen quickly in government, they never do. But several republicans have said MBS had Khashoggi killed and one even said in a court of law he would be found guilty in about 30 minutes. Sanctions are going to be in play and some are saying any military sales to this country will not happen. Give it a bit more time and see.

          It is likely that the Saudi / Trump connections will be investigated by the House. We know that the Saudi’s booked 500 hotel rooms in the Trump hotel – $250 million and did similar things in other Trump building in the recent past. How much money went to Kurshner to bail him out? The Trump family really stinks on this one and it is not that much different than Russia.

          • Christopher
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:13 am | Permalink

            I want to apologize for snapping at you. It was uncalled for. I don’t know what my problem was. I don’t know why I took your comment as an attack rather than just a question. Sorry.

      • Draken
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:44 am | Permalink

        Perhaps I’m older and (far) more cynical, but I assure you nothing of impact is going to happen. A bit of handwaving and virtue signalling, perhaps a mock investigation. The absolute most you can hope for is that Saudi-Arabia finds a scapegoat who is not the Prince, and executes them to pacify the protesting countries, who will give a friendly nod to the Prince and continue business as usual.

        Until the oil runs out OR they manage to undermine their own power internally, the Sauds are untouchable.

  8. Jon Gallant
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

    As I have suggested before, MBS presumably instructed the Saudi team to bring Jamal Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia for a little talk. Unfortunately, their tight budget required them to take him back in their hand-luggage, in 15 pieces.

  9. Harrison
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    I said it before but while Republicans can excuse Trump cozying up to Russia because they actually admire a country that’s majority white, nominally Christian, and virulently anti-gay, Saudi Arabia is a tougher sell.

  10. Jon Gallant
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    But Republicans, like VP Pence for example, can be counted on to revere religious faith.
    And Saudia is notable for the stringency of state-enforced religious piety. Come to think of it, Vladimir Vladimirovich makes a point of wearing a Russian Orthodox cross. Why, his friendly relations with MBS could be viewed as a model of Ecumenicism.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:35 am | Permalink

      Putin made an official visit to the Pope at the Vatican. No matter a leader’s ideology, playing the religion card in a nation guided by religious interests, e.g., Russia, is good politics. I suspect Putin’s friendliness with MbS is better attributed to both being petroleum kingpins.

  11. max blancke
    Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:25 pm | Permalink

    As horrible as the story is, I cannot understand why Khashoggi’s death is newsworthy, while the killings of journalists in Mexico and by the Turkish regime are considered unimportant.

    • rickflick
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

      52 journalists were killed around the world in 2018, so you have a point. On the other hand…there are some special circumstances in this case which make it more news worthy. The most important circumstance is that tRump denies that it happened so as to maintain US econimic ties to Saudi Arabia. So there’s a moral issue beyond the usual case of a clash with local politicians. And, Khashoggi worked for the Washington Post. Very high profile. But, you are correct in pointing out that he is but one tragedy among many.

      https://cpj.org/data/killed/2018/?status=Killed&motiveConfirmed%5B%5D=Confirmed&type%5B%5D=Journalist&start_year=2018&end_year=2018&group_by=location

    • Harrison
      Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:29 pm | Permalink

      Because while Khashoggi was not a full citizen, he was a legal American resident killed abroad. This is simply not something past administrations would have tolerated. But while Trump acts tough, he absolutely isn’t. And now every American who leaves US soil is taking the risk that their government will not have their back should anything befall them, because their President’s private business dealings carry more weight than his duty as head of state.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:22 am | Permalink

      He was a US resident tortured killed in the embassy of a foreign ally on the soil of another foreign state. There’s no plausible deniability for Saudi Arabia in this case.

      Furthermore, the case has been very badly handled by the US executive.

      That’s why this case receives special prominence. It may not be fair, but life isn’t fair. We always give unfair prominence to certain cases for various reasons. Even your question is framed in this way – why pick on journalists in particular? The killings of ordinary citizens are also considered unimportant, even to the point that countries like the USA will consider some “collateral damage*” acceptable in order to get at terrorist leaders.

      Sorry, but that is the way it works. In this case, however, some good may come of it. The US government (along with others like my own government in the UK) has long been doing deals with the Saudi regime. In the past, they have always brushed off criticism. This case makes it really hard not to face up to the nature of the regime in Saudi Arabia.

      *a euphemism for “murdered civilians”

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:57 am | Permalink

      Because it was particularly brutal and a particularly brazen flouting of international law — and because it strongly suggests that the president of the United States, and his son-in-law/chief adviser, are acting in the interests of a foreign power rather than in the best interest of the United States of America.

      • max blancke
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 9:46 am | Permalink

        Perhaps Trump’s remarks on the subject were made for the same reasons Churchill publicly absolved the USSR of the Katyn massacre.

        I am not convinced that conflict with the Saudis would be in the best interests of the US. At least at this time. I have serious issues with SA, and I have spent enough time there to have come by my opinions legitimately. But any destabilization of SA right now could potentially lead to much larger problems.

        It is worth considering that perhaps his remarks were made more for the Saudis than us. When Trump was with Putin and Kim Jong-un, he made remarks that make pretty good sense if seen as written for an audience of people in their home countries.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:17 am | Permalink

          I’ve seen no evidence that Trump ever acts out of anything but personal motivation — greed and/or self-aggrandizement — rather than realpolitik.

          Is there no bottom to what we should be willing to suffer from the Saudi royal family in the interest of promoting the regime’s stability? Saudi Arabia needs the US more that the US needs Saudi Arabia. And I see no reason SA could not survive the removal of its current crown prince in favor of one of their other ubiquitous “princes.”

          The least the US can do is insist that Saudi Arabia abjure from the flagrant flouting of international norms — particularly as it relates to the butchering of US residents and journalists.

        • Steve Pollard
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 1:27 pm | Permalink

          I agree with max. However deplorable the current KSA regime may be, the likely outcome if the monarchy were to be overthrown would be much, much worse.

          There are some reports that the rest of the family are regrouping, with the aim of curbing MbS’s overweening ambitions. Who might replace him is another question. The guy he usurped, Mohammed bin Nayef, is more cautious but also well attuned to the threats that his country faces – having been the subject of an assassination attempt himself. But I don’t know of too many other options at the moment.

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted December 10, 2018 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

            Does that mean we have to bend over for Saudi Arabia’s brutality in Yemen, and its fuckery in Qatar, too?

            Is there any line so low they might cross that it would warrant the imposition of severe sanctions — or that it would at least warrant the United States government telling the truth of the matter as determined by its intelligence agencies?

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:33 am | Permalink

      It’s not so much about the brutality of the death — it was swift compared to other retributive political executions — but rather the fact that he was a US resident and the US president shrugs his shoulders, and was reluctant to even do that much.

      Incidents like this become test cases for power relationships between governments. Here, t6he US has meekly given in without a protest to a weaker nation, purely because the president is compromised.

  12. Posted December 9, 2018 at 10:56 pm | Permalink

    I have not been disappointed when I take the most cynical position regarding the Republicans. Look at their non-reaction to mass murder of children with a military style weapon. Or other mass murders in recent history, again with these sorts of weapons. Or the present effects of global warming. Or the besmirching of the Supreme court with the last nominee. Or… any number of other outrages.
    This? This is not even a domestic issue.
    EZ PZ.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:32 am | Permalink

      No, but it is a human issue on a scale that most people can understand. The dire consequences of global warming are mostly still in the abstract. Some evil people sawed a man into pieces while he was alive.

      Before you point it out, Republicans do react to the mass shootings in the USA. They use it to claim that more guns are needed and they send out thoughts and prayers, which many of them believe are effective.

  13. Frank
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 4:54 am | Permalink

    Along with every other person in the world accused of a crime, MBS is entitled to the presumption of innocence. That such a blindingly obvious basic human and legal right should be so ignored on a liberal left wing blog like this one is, to me, baffling. All of the above comments assume MBS’s guilt based on media reports and CIA phone intercepts.
    Until, and if, MBS is ever brought to trial before a properly constituted international court of law e.g. The Hague, we MUST assume his innocence.

    • Draken
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 5:59 am | Permalink

      Precisely! And since none of Fidel Castro, Joseph Stalin, Agusto Pinochet, Franco or Kim Yong-un have ever been tried before a court, they must all be presumed innocent! Right?

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

        Indeed. Let us also recall that Manuel Noriega, Saddam Hussein, and the Nazis were all tried after the fact. I don’t recall any dithering over their presumption of innocence before we deployed our military to depose them. Why in the world would be concerned about MbS’s presumption of innocence before imposing sanctions on SA or demanding that MbS be removed from power?

      • Frank
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 10:15 pm | Permalink

        Well the Allies certainly gave captured Nazi’s the presumption of innocence which is why they were given fair trials. Right?
        To paraphrase Thomas Paine :
        Any man who would make secure his right to presumption of innocence must also secure his enemy’s right for if he does not he sets a precedent which will reach back to himself.

    • Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:07 am | Permalink

      Presumption of innocence is a legal principle to protect the accused from what would otherwise be the potential misuse of power by the state.
      Literally not one single word of that applies to the moral and political judgment made of a corrupt despot who has bribed various leading American politicians (and this is on record) including the president himself (and this is slowly emerging) who openly celebrates with other despots who routinely muder journalists (watch him high-fiving Putin at the G20) and whose blame for this murder is the conclusion of your countries own intelligence services
      https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-46245167
      Sorry to be the bearer or bad tidings. To “presume him innocent” under these circumstances does not look like the sober reflection of some legal scholar.
      It appears instead as the special pleading of a delusional conspiracy theorist, or the desperate psychological defensiveness of someone trying to dodge responsiblity for their own weakness of character.

      • Gamall
        Posted December 10, 2018 at 6:13 am | Permalink

        Agreed. Your last paragraph was unnecessary, though.

        • Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

          Nope. Being a conspiracy theorist is not just a bullying excoriation, a cuase of thinking stupid things. Its a primary failure of thinking clearly in and of it itself. Consider, there is absolutely no evidence that could make such a person change their mind. Their false beliefs are not just a consquence of false premises. If you somehow managed to change the prmises they would rapidly acquire a whole bunch of other (equally false) beliefs. They generate them. Cutting off the hydras head is pointless.

      • Frank
        Posted December 11, 2018 at 2:09 am | Permalink

        Article 66 from the Rome Statute of the ICC :

        1. Everyone shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty before the Court in accordance with the applicable law.
        2. The onus is on the Prosecutor to prove the guilt of the accused.
        3. In order to convict the accused, the Court must be convinced of the guilt of the accused beyond reasonable doubt. 
 

        That’s pretty black and white and note point 1 doesn’t contain the caveat “except for those people who everyone just knows is already guilty”.

        I don’t think the commenters here fully grasp the implications of their views. The western legal system, be it adversarial or inquisitorial, is one the greatest achievements of western democracy and running thru that achievement, like a “golden thread” is PoI. And now you want to pull that thread and risk unravelling the whole fabric because of one alleged crime?
        And no, I am not a legal scholar but Geoffrey Robertson QC certainly is and I guarantee he agrees with my view. But don’t take my word for it, read his book “Crimes Against Humanity”.

        Now do please tell me Helena – does all of the above sound like delusional conspiracy, desperate defensiveness, weakness of character? Because if it does you can include the practitioners of legal scholarship throughout the western world.
        How dare you put labels me who you don’t know from a bar of soap. By all means engage and disagree but spare me your facile snark. Name calling is always a sign someone has nothing worthwhile to contribute.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted December 11, 2018 at 4:53 am | Permalink

          That’s all well and good, Frank, should MbS ever submit himself to the jurisdiction of the ICC for trial on the charges of murdering Jamaal Khashoggi (something he quite obviously will never do).

          But it has zero relevance to the questions under consideration here about how the US should approach this as a matter of foreign policy, such as whether Magnitsky-style sanction should be imposed against Saudi Arabia, or whether the US should refuse to maintain relations with Saudi Arabia unless MbS is made to step down as crown prince because of his role in the Khashoggi assassination.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:20 am | Permalink

      As soon as MbS submits himself to the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court, I will champion his presumption of innocence.

      Until then, this is a matter of foreign policy, to which no presumption of innocence applies.

      • Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:03 am | Permalink

        Are you listening to yourself?
        Heres one translation:
        “As soon as the despotic prince of a medieval state changes into a guilt-ridden liberal, I will condescend to shine the light of my brilliance upon the august affair”
        Here’s another possible translation:
        “Until I grow a moral backbone I will continue to wriggle and squirm on the hook of the hideous evidence that only a child caught with it’s (amputated) hand in the cookie jar could deny”

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:44 am | Permalink

          You’re the one who’s not listening to me. My only point was that (pace “Frank” above) MbS is entitled to no presumption of innocence when it comes to the imposition of international sanctions and the setting of US foreign policy.

          You can’t possibly be agreeing with Frank that he is, can you?

  14. Mike
    Posted December 10, 2018 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    I watched an interview on RT with a chap called Aimen Dean, he has written a Book “Nine Lives: My Time As MI6’s Top Spy Inside al-Qaeda”, in that interview, he was asked about Kashoggi, he said that Kashoggi was a long-standing member of the Saudi Intelligence Service ,and they were worried that his relationship with his Turkish Fiancee would make him vulnerable to the Turkish Intelligence Services, and that the murder within the Saudi Embassy was an extraction operation that went wrong. Now you can make of this what you will, my question would be where the information came from about that version of the events? https://www.rt.com/shows/going-underground/445944-alqaeda-war-terror-mi6/

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 8:25 am | Permalink

      You do realize that RT is a propaganda arm of the Kremlin, right?

    • Zetopan
      Posted December 13, 2018 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

      RT used to be called Russia Today and it is certainly a propaganda arm of that country.

  15. Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Some speculation without evidence:

    The killing was already cleared with Trump, who reacted with fascination at the idea of killing and dismembering a US journalist. I think people underestimate the possibility that he would absolutely love to order that kind of thing himself.

    Niki Haley got wind of it and promptly resigned.

    Trump is still baffled and frustrated as to why Putin and the Saudis can get away with this kind of thing and he still can’t figure out how to get around the hurdles put in his way by the ‘deep state’.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted December 10, 2018 at 11:58 am | Permalink

      I’m not prepared to go that far yet. But I think there’s a good chance that, at their little pajama party last year, Jared Kushner furnished MbS with classified US intelligence that MbS subsequently used to roundup and torture dissidents in the Saudi royal family, and that MbS interpreted this as having the US’s tacit backing to do anything he wanted to Saudi citizens, including murdering dissident expatriate journalists.

  16. Posted December 11, 2018 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

    Almost in time for Human Rights Day.

  17. Posted December 15, 2018 at 7:23 am | Permalink

    Reblogged this on jtveg's Blog and commented:
    This is gross, disgusting, disgraceful, inhuman and evil, the sooner “they”, (the kingdom) runs out of oil the better.


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