The Left eats the Left: A Native American won’t vote for Elizabeth Warren because she supposedly fabricated a Cherokee ancestry

Grania tells me that I should stop reading HuffPo so often because it makes me angry. She may be right, but I also read Breitbart, The Daily Wire, Everyday Feminism, and a number of sites on the Left and Right, including extremes on both sides. I do that to see what’s going on across the spectrum of politics. People often tell me I should be spending more time criticizing Republicans and Trump instead of the Authoritarian Left, but everybody does the former; it’s low-hanging fruit and available everywhere. Being another voice in the loud chorus against Trump doesn’t get my juices flowing, though views on the odious nature of the Right, Trump, and the Republican ideology are well known.

One of my claims has been that Authoritarian Leftism hurts Leftism as a whole, making our side seem petty, ludicrous, elitist, concerned with identity more than unity, and excessively divisive. The article below is one example (click on the screenshot):

The article is about Elizabeth Warren, and is written by Rebecca Nagle, a woman of Cherokee ancestry. Nagle’s beef, as you’ll see, is that she simply will not vote for Elizabeth Warren as a Presidential candidate—Warren has intimated that she may run in 2020—because Warren supposedly claimed that she had some Cherokee genes.  I haven’t followed this claim, but recall that there is some disagreement about whether Warren really did claim Cherokee ancestry. (That’s why Trump, in his usual boorish manner, called Warren “Pocahontas” during the campaign.)

If Warren did confect a false ancestry to gain some kind of “minority” benefits, then that’s bad, and a blotch on her character. Still, if she ran against any Republican I know, I’d still vote for her. (I doubt that she’ll run, or that she will win if she does run, for she’d be typed as a “Massachusetts liberal,” but I’d vote for her nonetheless.)

Nagle disagrees:

If Warren could simply state, “Like many non-Native Americans, I grew up with stories that my family was part Cherokee and Delaware. After reviewing extensive research on my genealogy going back over 150 years, I now know these stories are not true. I am sorry for any harm my mistaken claims have caused,” I would publicly support her. Such a move would not only be moral and brave but would also serve as a great teaching moment for many Americans who do not understand why false claims to Native identity undermine Native rights.

We don’t know yet if Warren will run for president in 2020, but I know I will not vote for her or stop speaking up against her gross appropriation of Native ancestry until she stops claiming it. Her persistent claims to an ancestry that doesn’t belong to her send the message that the true history and lives of Indigenous people don’t matter.

Two things. First, there’s that claim of “harm” again. Yes, it would irk me if I were in the Cherokee tribe and somebody claimed membership without documentation. But would it break my bones or pick my pocket? No. Nagle is just claiming some sort of victimhood here. No real harm is done to the Cherokee nation by Warren’s claim.  And do read Nagle’s complaint: it’s very long, and an exemplar of the Offense Culture.

More important, I can’t conceive of any liberal not voting for Warren because of this claim. Even if you abstain instead of voting for her or her Republican opponent, you’re still helping Republicans stay in power. This is a prime example of what’s called “cutting off your nose to spite your face.” Which is better: withholding a vote from a decent Democratic candidate because she claimed to share your ancestry, or holding your nose and voting for a better country?

Too often the Left goes for the first option, and that’s one of the reasons we’re not in power. I held my nose and voted for Hillary, and maintain that this would be a better country had she won.

104 Comments

  1. Randall Schenck
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 9:59 am | Permalink

    This business about Warren is all settled rumor as I understand it. A reporter did all the digging and research to show that she was admitted to the colleges she attended without any claim that she was native American…

    I’m sure it is available out there on line. I saw this reporter interviewed on a cable show last week so it is pretty new.

    • Nicolaas Stempels
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      Indeed,I see no harm if she did not use it to get an unfair advantage in getting an advantage in these quota kind of things (if I may express myself so lamely). Personally I do have some reservations about quota at any rate.

      Why would Ms Nagle not see it as a compliment that someone would claim heritage of her group/ethnic ancestry? At any rate -if I understood correctly- I think Ms Warren is just sticking with a story in her family, which might even be true.

      • Randall Schenck
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:10 am | Permalink

        Isn’t this all just nonsense. This country just managed to put a most extreme and vile person on the supreme court and you worry about how many parts native American someone might be. Excuse me, I need a drink.

        • Nicolaas Stempels
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:42 am | Permalink

          I could’t agree more. I’m having a nice glass of Pinotage right now. At least my hangovers are less aggressive and unhinged than Mr Kavanaugh’s.

      • busterggi
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:59 am | Permalink

        “Personally I do have some reservations about quota at any rate.”

        I saw what you did there.

        • Nicolaas Stempels
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 9:43 pm | Permalink

          Whether quota are justified or not (both sides have good arguments) is not really the question here, but whether they were abused. Apparently they were not.

  2. Ken Kukec
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:13 am | Permalink

    … I also read Breitbart, The Daily Wire, Everyday Feminism, and a number of sites on the Left and Right, including extremes on both sides.

    I do something similar. Hell, used to be, if I’d put the cable news on in the evening, I’d even make a point of popping over to Fox News every so often to see what the scoundrels were up to. Had to lay off for a while, though, since I was developing carpal tunnel from doing the universal jerking-off semaphore every time Sean Hannity or Tucker Carlson showed their miserable mugs on the screen.

    • infiniteimprobabilit
      Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:16 am | Permalink

      Me too.

      My wife (who is an indiscriminate TV viewer and also has control of the remote) occasionally clicks on Faux News by chance. If yelling ‘push another button’ doesn’t work within about two minutes flat I have to leave the room.

      cr

  3. mordacious1
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:19 am | Permalink

    Just be warned,
    If we have a Pocahontas/Spartacus or a Creepy Porn Lawyer/Pocahontas ticket, Trump will win. Warren is finished, Booker is toast, as is Hillary. Biden maybe? Trump will slaughter Sanders also. I would suggest that the Dems run someone slightly left of center, if they want to win. Our country has a center-right majority and running someone far left would be a disaster.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:50 am | Permalink

      Trump couldn’t “slaughter” anyone. He backed into the presidency by minus 3 million votes, and he’s been 10-15 points underwater in approval polls ever since. He has his white nationalist base, and the pusillanimous establishment Republicans who’re afraid to cross him, and nearly nothing else. He’s shedding support from college-educated suburban Republican women like it’s molting season in lobster land.

      If Trump is around to run in 2020 — and that’s still a big, fat “if” — all Vlad’s horses and all Vlad’s men won’t be able to put Trumpty-Dumpty back together again.

        • Historian
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:16 am | Permalink

          The Rasmussen poll is notorious for its skewing in favor of Republicans. I much prefer the FiveThirtyEight site aggregation of polls that shows Trump’s favorability rating at 42.2%. This is up about two points from a few weeks ago and marks a return to a number that has been more or less constant for months. This means that the perception of Trump by the American people is largely rigid and barely changing. In other words, no matter what Trump does people will not change their minds about him. Trump thinks that his support, although representing a minority of people, is strategically located and enthusiastic enough to carry him and the Republican Party to victory. We’ll know in a few weeks. FiveThirtyEight has Democrats up 49.0% to 41.3% in the generic congressional poll. These numbers mean little in predicting how races will turn out in specific congressional districts.

          https://fivethirtyeight.com/

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:21 am | Permalink

          Rasmussen is a C+ poll with a well-established Republican bias. Here’s the tracking done by 538 that averages, and provides the numbers for, every poll done since Donald Trump took office. As of today, Trump is 10 points underwater, 42.2% approve to 52.2% disapprove, as he has been every day since the second week of his presidency.

          Didn’t your grandma ever warn you, you keep rolling your eyes like that, there gonna stay that way?

          • XCellKen
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 3:34 pm | Permalink

            No, but my parents repeatedly warned me about going blind

            • Ken Kukec
              Posted October 5, 2018 at 4:38 pm | Permalink

              Stop as soon as you need glasses, was my motto.

      • Nicolaas Stempels
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:03 am | Permalink

        Oooh, I like that, but all Vlad’s trolls just may.
        Although I ‘m still convinced Mr Trump won by counting fraud in several swing states (as illustrated by the huge discrepancy between exit polls and actual count), and nothing has been done to address that, a massive democratic show up at the midterms just might overcome that.

      • mordacious1
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:19 am | Permalink

        Remember, when the Trumpster Dumpster ran the first time, he was a reality tv star running as a joke (to most people). Next time, he’ll be running as the POTUS. I think more independents will vote for him this time around because he now has credibility and he hasn’t blown up the world as predicted.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:31 am | Permalink

          … he now has credibility …

          Of course he does; that’s what telling over 5,000 verifiable lies in office will do for a fella.

        • Randy Bessinger
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:36 pm | Permalink

          I agree with that but the fact is truth does not seem to matter anymore. While entirely subjective, I know peopke who voted for Trump reluctantly, but now are “converted”. They do not care that the Russians helped, they don’t care about his lies, they only care about the economy etc. Time and time again, there is a revelation that would sink normal politicians and he just attacks, attacks, attacks and is successful with Fox,and other right media people to change the narrative. I hope I am wrong but the question in my mind is not what the polls say, but who is most likely to vote. I REALLY hope I am wrong.

          • E.A. Blair
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

            The Republican Party is suffering from moral caries – also known as truth decay.

      • Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:31 am | Permalink

        Have you heard the rumor? Trump has some secret military action planned. If true, it wouldn’t surprise me if it is calculated to “get the US people behind their commander-in-chief” or some such nonsense. There’s also a chance he will use the new Presidential Alert System to broadcast some pro-GOP and pro-Trump messages to us all. Regardless of where the polls on Trump popularity are now, they’re bound to change. The likely Kavanaugh confirmation will launch a new season of the Trump show which must outdo the last season.

        • Diana MacPherson
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:33 am | Permalink

          Oh I hope he doesn’t use a Presidential Message. That would just be awful as it would suggest a use of an emergency broadcast system to send propaganda and that is going to just depress me.

        • E.A. Blair
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

          The Presidential Alert System makes me very glad that I have kept to my landline like a Luddite.

      • Diane G
        Posted October 6, 2018 at 2:53 am | Permalink

        “He has his white nationalist base, and the pusillanimous establishment Republicans who’re afraid to cross him, and nearly nothing else” the Rooskies, hacked voting machines, voter suppression machinations, gerrymandering, idiot leftists voting third party, possibly the Supreme Court deciding a close election…

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted October 6, 2018 at 8:06 am | Permalink

          Thanks for fixing that for me. 🙂

          • Diane G
            Posted October 7, 2018 at 12:07 am | Permalink

            I do prefer your version, though! 😉

    • Posted October 27, 2018 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

      I have seen a number of Republicans express hope that Warren will run against Trump in 2020.

  4. Historian
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:36 am | Permalink

    While some may think that identity politics is a new phenomenon, in actuality it is as old as the Republic and it is not going away anytime soon. We seem to be in a period when group identification is at an extreme level. Again, this is not new. For example, white Protestants, out of fear of Catholic immigration, formed their own national political party in the early 1850s, nicknamed the Know-Nothings. It did have some electoral success until the immigration issues was vastly overshadowed by the slavery issue. However, what I think is different this time (I can’t say for sure without doing a lot of research) is that ardent advocates of the concept that group identification is a good thing seem unable to grasp the concept that for them to achieve their goals they must be willing to ally themselves with other people or groups that don’t totally share their views. In other words, they don’t understand that politics is the art of compromise. This rigidity can be found on both the left and the right. Hence, we have gridlock that has descended into extreme partisanship.

    The attitude of Ms. Nagle reflects this sad situation on a micro level. Over something totally trivial she would abet the election of a person whose policies are inimical to the best interest of her group. The Democratic Party is a coalition of various interest and identity groups. The core of the Republican Party is one, large identity group – religious white people. This means that in contrast to the Republican Party the Democratic Party must placate these various groups, not all of whom agree on everything. To achieve most of what they want, these groups must be willing to compromise with other groups. If crucial groups in the Democratic coalition take their marbles and go home because they can’t get everything they want then Democrats will continue to lose elections. This is why Ms. Nagle’s views are irrational.

    • Nicolaas Stempels
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

      “Over something totally trivial she would abet the election of a person whose policies are inimical to the best interest of her group.” Could that have been put any better?
      ‘Irrational’ is the operative term indeed.

      • Diane G
        Posted October 6, 2018 at 2:59 am | Permalink

        + 1

        Well said, Historian.

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

      Over something totally trivial she would abet the election of a person whose policies are inimical to the best interest of her group.

      Persistant, protracted mendacity is not trivial. Nor is willful falsification of minority status on job applications.

  5. Jenny Haniver
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    I was reminded of this film “The Brainwashing of My Dad” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brainwashing_of_My_Dad, a film about the director’s father, who became a raving right-winger after listening to conservative talk radio on his commute.

    Certainly, this won’t happen to PCC(E) either rightward or leftward, his intellect and integrity are intact; but it’s a reminder of how certain negative influences can become pernicious; and I had to stop listening to MichaelSavage because, though I began listening to him out of boredom and also to hear one of the really rabid right wingers in action (he was also local), I found myself unwittingly becoming infected with HIS venomous anger, and everything became an occasion for contempt and ridicule. I realized that I was being brainwashed.

    • Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

      I had a similar experience. During certain seasons I end up driving a lot, and I usually listen to music cds, and occasionally NPR, but one Summer I decided to check out AM talk radio for a few weeks. Other parts of the media may or may not have a liberal bias, but right wing nut jobs have a lock on AM talk radio! I tried to listen analytically and imagine how satisfying it must be to let Glenn Beck tell you who to vent your frustrations on, but the more I listened to religious fanatics and political demagogues manipulate their listeners the more pissed off I became. One day it hit me that I was becoming addicted to my own fury at them and was actually looking forward to getting worked up over their nonsense. That was the empathy moment where I could see how easy it can be to get addicted to that rush of anger and righteousness; I was becoming a mirror image of their fan base! I see a similar dynamic on the left, although it comes from different sources. That shit’s insidious, and lots of otherwise good people fall for it.

      The documentary, “Brainwashing My Dad” looks interesting; I’ll check it out.

    • Diane G
      Posted October 6, 2018 at 3:08 am | Permalink

      Yet, I think every leftist should listen to Michael Savage and a sampling of the other rabid white-wing, I mean, right-wing radio talk show hosts to realize just how vile the Republican wing-nuts are. Actually, odious as he is, it’s Savage’s followers, those who call in to the show, who are really, really appallingly scary.

  6. Ken Kukec
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:38 am | Permalink

    The Boston Globe has thoroughly debunked the claim that Warren ever received any type of “minority benefit” from her claimed Native American ancestry.

    And Liz is gonna run. Her comment at a townhall the other day that she would
    “take a hard look” at a presidential run
    after the midterms all but ensures it.

    • Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

      This woman’s objection is not that Warren got a benefit but simply that she tried to. It’s about Warren’s actions not anyone else’s.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:23 am | Permalink

        What’s your basis for claiming that Elizabeth Warren ever applied for a program seeking a minority benefit based on Native American ancestry?

  7. Posted October 5, 2018 at 10:47 am | Permalink

    All she (Warren) has to do is send her $$ and some cheek cells to http://www.23andme dot com When my wife Rose did this 5 years ago she learned that the family had been lying about Cherokee heritage and covering up the fact that they were African-American, 1/32nd (drop) in the case of my wife. Her new-found Black cousins are much more friendly than her brothers and 1st cousins.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:00 am | Permalink

      Good for her. As for you, under the Jim Crow anti-miscegenation laws, that blood test would’ve been grounds for divorce. Louisiana did not repeal its one-drop rule until 1983.

      Can you imagine?

    • John Conoboy
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:06 am | Permalink

      All across the southern states are people who claim to be part American Indian, and it is almost always Cherokee. Most are not. Some have even created their own “tribes” and the Cherokee hate this and express that hatred with great fervor.

      But, the Cherokee did intermarry with whites a lot. John Ross, who was Chief during the Cherokee removal, was only 1/16 Cherokee. Most of the Cherokee I know, and I have met a lot, do not have features we would associate with being Indian.

      As you say, it is easy to find out these days. Just spit in the tube and send in a sample.

      • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

        DNA tests are not relevant. To find out, trace your genealogy back to a member of one of the tribal rolls.

  8. Frank L Wagner
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Warren addressed this issue earlier this year, saying that she believed in her family story but was not enrolled in a tribe and that tribal membership was for tribes alone to determine. At the time, Nagle was quoted as being supportive, although saying that Warren should investigate further. See this Boston Globe story: https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/02/14/warren-addresses-claims-native-american-heritage/0VM3tX88fVxALoyZq9VvvJ/story.html

  9. Jonathan Dore
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:08 am | Permalink

    Some people seem to have the strange mindset that they would, in the end, prefer to be in opposition than to make even the most minor compromise. They are more concerned with not having responsibility than they are with stopping actual harm being done.

  10. W.T. Effingham
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:16 am | Permalink

    As recently as three years ago, I often found myself “ending up” on Huffpo articles . Thanks to PCC(E) Coyne’s informative posts concerning the topics, sources, opinions, and intentions of said articlez, I quit wasting time with them. If these posts (including the insightful points of most frequent commenters) have the same effects on several people per post, progress will happen.

  11. Diana MacPherson
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    Strange that mistakenly thinking you have certain ancestry undermines someone’s rights. It has to be because identity says you can never be me and never know me so how dare you be more like me than you actually are even if it wasn’t to be deceptive. How dare you get into my club because I want to be “us” and I want you to be “them” and we shall never relate on our common humanity.

    It reminded me of a time back in the late 90s when I was in Rotorua and saw a Maori performance of several songs and a haka. Some doofus in the audience rudely noted that not everyone on stage was as dark as each other and actually asked what percentage Maori they all were. This person wasn’t a Kiwi. I won’t say what his nationality was as I thought him rude. The person answered in a great way (unlike me who would say, “you look a bit yellow, are you all white or is there some percentage of strange cartoon character in you as that would also explain the rudeness”) saying that there are lots of mixings with Maori these days and that doesn’t matter to them. They welcome anyone who wants to be part of their culture. Take that rude guy who asked a rude question before genetic testing was even available to the general population! And I’ve seen this inclusivity in NZ a lot. I have good family friends there who are Maori who I consider my whanau and here I am all white with a funny accent.

    • infiniteimprobabilit
      Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:49 am | Permalink

      After many generations of intermarriage there is every ratio from 0 to 100% of Maori blood (though I’d make a guess that 100% is vanishingly rare).

      Maori culture was (as I understand it) always fairly open to receiving strangers into the tribe. This probably reflects its origin in the Pacific islands where populations were small and anything that avoided inbreeding was an advantage.

      cr

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:44 pm | Permalink

      Maori … welcome anyone who wants to be part of their culture.

      Aside from submitting a crab dip recipe to the bogus “Pow Wow Chow”* cookbook, Warren engaged in zero cultural, community, or tribal activity of her putative Cherokee heritage. When asked to meet with Cherokee representatives, she refused.

      * Cherokee don’t even have pow wows.

  12. Curtis
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:29 am | Permalink

    According to Snopes “it is true that while Warren was at U. Penn. Law School she put herself on the ‘Minority Law Teacher’ list as Native American)”
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/elizabeth-warren-wealthy-native-american/

    She claimed a status that she did not deserve and, as far as I know, she has never accepted blame not apologized for her misinformation.

    • Randall Schenck
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

      If you would just read the article more closely and completely you might see that your statement on this is just wrong. How do you know she did something that was wrong, by simply claiming a status as minority. Why would she then accept blame for something that is not actually anything to apologize for. She did not obtain her entry to Penn by claiming anything and she did not get into Harvard with any such claim. And even if she did….so what?

      • Curtis
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

        “How do you know she did something that was wrong, by simply claiming a status as minority.” I am not sure what you are saying. Are you saying Snopes is wrong and she did not claim she was a minority professor? Are you saying she is a minority? Both of these seem highly unlikely.

        If you are saying she may have innocently, but mistakenly, thought she was a minority because of family stories, that seems reasonable. What do you do when you find out you have made an innocent mistake? I accept the blame and apologize. That is what she should have done.

        “She did not obtain her entry to Penn by claiming anything and she did not get into Harvard with any such claim.” I never said anything of the sort and you just implied something was false. Perhaps you should accept the blame and apologize for an innocent mistake 😉

        • Randy Bessinger
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

          I don’t know, as a politician Trump has been very successful at never apologizing or if does, later saying he was wrong to do it. Maybe she should take a page out of Trumps book, call it fake news and declare she is full blooded Cherokee!

          • Posted October 27, 2018 at 5:11 pm | Permalink

            As someone commented on the Warren-Trump conflict, you cannot out-Trump Trump and should not try.

        • Randall Schenck
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

          Just go back and read the last sentence of your first comment. That statement is just blue sky and not correct. First you want Warren to apologize when none is due and now you ask for mine. Please get serious.

          • Curtis
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:13 pm | Permalink

            You said “How do you know she did something that was wrong, by simply claiming a status as minority.” What do mean by this?

            Are you saying:
            1) Snopes is wrong that she did not claim to be a minority professor?
            2) She is a minority.
            3) She made an innocent mistake?
            4) Claiming to be a minority when you are not is not wrong.
            5) Something else.

        • Posted October 5, 2018 at 3:20 pm | Permalink

          I can’t imagine apologizing to Trump, even indirectly. If that is a symptom of Trump Derangement Syndrome, then so be it. I am hoping for a partial cure in November.

      • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:38 pm | Permalink

        How do you know she did something that was wrong, by simply claiming a status as minority.

        It’s safe to assume that a clever, practicing attorney and graduate from a prestigious law school would recognize the severity of making a false claim in direct violation of a federal statute.

  13. JonLynnHarvey
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:48 am | Permalink

    Cheeses Ache Krysst.

    Warren said she might have Native American ancestry, and was told so by her parents, and never used this to advance her career in any way.

    How about jumping on Mitt Romney for being a member of a religion that claims Native Americans have Jewish ancestry, or Nazis for believing that Jesus was of pure Aryan ancestry, clearly far far more preposterous claims!!!!

    Wikipedia reports
    “Genealogical investigators could not find proof that Warren’s ancestors were or were not Native American.[72][78][79] The Oklahoma Historical Society said that finding a definitive answer about Native American heritage can be difficult because of intermarriage and deliberate avoidance of registration.[80] Both Brown and President Donald Trump have challenged Warren to “prove” her Native American ancestry by getting a DNA test, however a genetic expert from the Department of Genetics at Stanford University states “It’s really difficult to say that a DNA test would be able to identify how much Native American ancestry [Warren] has.”[81][82]”

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:33 pm | Permalink

      Warren said she might have Native American ancestry, and was told so by her parents, and never used this to advance her career in any way.

      Warren listed herself as native american in a legal professionals’ recruitment guide. She ticked the ‘minority’ box on her Harvard application despite not meeting the federal requirements for minority status. Harvard announced her as a minority hire and counted her toward minority hire stats.

      “Genealogical investigators could not find proof that Warren’s ancestors were or were not Native American. The Oklahoma Historical Society said that finding a definitive answer about Native American heritage can be difficult because of intermarriage and deliberate avoidance of registration.”

      That is patently false.

      Citizenship the three Cherokee nations is contingent upon having an ancestor on the official tribal Rolls. Warren’s complete ancestry has been traced back four generations, to the 1790’s, and it has been definitively shown that Warren has no such ancestor.

  14. Ken Kukec
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 11:50 am | Permalink

    Donald Trump has got some chutzpah mocking Elizabeth Warren for claiming Indian ancestry. The family of Trump’s father, Fred (who was himself arrested at a Ku Klux Klan rally in Queens in 1927) changed the family name from “Drumpf” to Trump, and began falsely claiming Swedish ancestry, when it became inconvenient for business purposes to be honest about the family’s German heritage.

    • mordacious1
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:26 pm | Permalink

      What has anything that Trump’s dad did with the KKK have to do with Trump? Sins of the father? Democrats should be careful going down that road, since they were the party of the KKK in their heyday.

      • Diana MacPherson
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:29 pm | Permalink

        I think Ken’s trying to say “people in glass houses”. If he’s mocking Elizabeth Warren for being deceptive, he has a lot of deceptiveness in his own father he seems isn’t mock worthy.

        • mordacious1
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:46 pm | Permalink

          Mocking someone for being deceptive is one thing, mocking one of their dead parents is another. Go after me, not my wife, children or dead relatives. The Left doesn’t seem to get this (eg. going after Sarah Sander’s friends and family when they tried to eat after Sanders left).

          • Diana MacPherson
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:49 pm | Permalink

            So it’s OK for Trump to call Elizabeth Warren “Pocahontas” but no one can say anything about Trump’s dad because he’s dead and his parent.

            • mordacious1
              Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

              Yep. You got it.

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:53 pm | Permalink

                Donald Trump and his dad were jointly sued by the US Justice Department — twice! — for refusing to rent apartments to black folk. Is that okay to talk about according to mordacious1’s rules of political decorum?

                How about Donald Trump — who this week became the champion of the presumption of innocence — seeking to impose the death penalty, ex post facto, on five minority juveniles that had yet to be convicted of anything (and who were eventually exonerated by DNA evidence)?

              • Diana MacPherson
                Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

                No because his dad is dead and his dad so you can’t say anything. Only criticisms of the current and alive generation are allowed.

              • Randy Bessinger
                Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

                My Repulbican friends are convinced Obama was not born an America and is a Muslim because his dad was. They don’s say that as a good thing.

              • mordacious1
                Posted October 5, 2018 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

                Oh. I thought you got it. My mistake. One more time then: In Ken’s example, Trump allegedly did something wrong, that’s why he was included in the lawsuit. Fair game. If your grandmother was a hooker, otoh, totally not your fault. Or JFK’s dad being a bootlegger. Not JFK’s fault. I don’t see why this is a difficult concept.

              • infiniteimprobabilit
                Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:33 am | Permalink

                Umm. Hitler’s dead, reputedly. Can we please have a moratorium on saying nasty things about him?

                (Nope, thought not)

                cr

              • Chukar
                Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

                Here’s a saying which is always useful to remember:

                “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” – G. Santayana

                Mentioning Hitler yet again is so trite, isn’t it? Everyone is doing it. It’s become banal.

                Hitler was not the first and will not be the last psychopath with a great gift for using propaganda to sway millions. There are such people around right now, working their will on those who think they know better than to fall for it.

                When you forget the disasters they create and believe that “it can’t happen here” or that you are special and cannot be swayed by such a person, you guarantee that they will appear and they will persuade you to behave monstrously, even if it is in a banal manner.

              • mordacious1
                Posted October 6, 2018 at 10:46 am | Permalink

                Good job missing the point.

          • Randall Schenck
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:54 pm | Permalink

            That is just crap. Look how Trump went after Cruz’s entire family. Got Cruz so shook up he was almost ready for a fight. Now he is busy kissing Trumps butt.

            • Diana MacPherson
              Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

              Yes, remember the “my wife is prettier than your wife” taunts?

            • mordacious1
              Posted October 5, 2018 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

              So
              Your standard is, that Trump does it, so it must be okay. I see.

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:58 pm | Permalink

            You mean the way Donald Trump asked Andy McCabe how it felt to have a wife who was a “loser”? Or how Trump mocked Heidi Cruz’s looks and threatened to “spill the beans” on her emotional problems? Or how he claimed Cruz’s father assassinated JFK?

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

        “Democrats should be careful going down that road, since they were the party of the KKK in their heyday.”

        You talkin’ about all those southern voters disaffected from the Democratic party by passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and then welcomed into the GOP per Richard Nixon’s “southern strategy” and by Ronald Reagan’s kicking off his 1980 campaign with a “states rights” speech in Philadelphia, Mississippi, site of the murder of three civil-rights workers — those Democrats?

        • mordacious1
          Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

          Yeah…the Democrat Party, that one. Own the history. Don’t deflect by saying some of those people are now Republicans.

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted October 5, 2018 at 1:41 pm | Permalink

            It certainly constitutes an ignoble history that the Democratic Party had those right-wing racists in its ranks. But the Party purged them, largely through Lyndon Johnson’s championing of the Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights ACt, and Housing Rights Act of the 1960s.

            I see no sign that today’s Republican Party is making any analogous effort to purge itself of Donald Trump and his reactionary white-nationalist base. Do you?

            • E.A. Blair
              Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:28 pm | Permalink

              Whenever someone uses the term “Democrat Party” to refer to the “Democratic Party”, you know that they are attempting to belittle the Democratic party in a very juvenile and petty manner.

              • mordacious1
                Posted October 5, 2018 at 5:25 pm | Permalink

                You noticed that, did you? It’s because they are not democratic.

              • Diane G
                Posted October 6, 2018 at 3:17 am | Permalink

                “…in a very juvenile and petty manner.”

                Yep.

  15. busterggi
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

    A DNA profile would be nice.

    I question the geneology simply because many people denied native American ancestors because it was conside4red ‘unseemly’ to not be completely white.

    Even then I’d wonder because my ex’s family has a tradiona of having non-specific (too embarrassing you know) native American blood and her brother had a DNA test done that supposedly showed none. Yet I knew their grandmother and if she wasn’t native American she must’ve have plastic surgery and permanent skin dying done because she seemed real to me.

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:13 pm | Permalink

      DNA is irrelevant to Warren’s claims.

      While some American Indian nations have ‘blood quantum’ (minimum ancestry) requirements, others, including three Cherokee nations require only that one ancestor appear on the relevant tribal ‘roll’ originally compiled by the Federal government.

      Warren’s genealogy has been exhaustively researched and she possesses no ancestor on any tribal roll.

  16. Posted October 5, 2018 at 12:14 pm | Permalink

    Some Native American activists (including my friend Raven and Menno Boldt) have argued that a move to *merit based* inclusion, rather than ancestry is the only way to have any chance at preserving certain traditions.

    It would also solve questions like the ones around Warren.

  17. Chukar
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:09 pm | Permalink

    I’m 50% of Norwegian ancestry. Where’s my “Norwegian Heritage Month”? The racists are snubbing our proud heritage, and it’s all because brave Norwegians in their rowboats-with-sails pillaged half of Europe, killing their men and enslaving their women and children, and that happened only a millennium or so ago.

    Seriously, if someone wanted to claim Norwegian ancestry without proof, I could not care less. I do not understand why people get emotionally upset about this sort of thing.

    If “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery,” then the desire to be a member of some group is a form of admiration. Just stand back and be admired for something for which you can take no personal credit whatsoever.

    Now let’s get back to the topic of “Norwegian Admiration Month.”

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted October 5, 2018 at 4:52 pm | Permalink

      Three words: lute-fuckin’-fisk.

      Live that down, if you can. 🙂

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:05 pm | Permalink

      Seriously, if someone wanted to claim Norwegian ancestry without proof, I could not care less. I do not understand why people get emotionally upset about this sort of thing.

      Casual, unverified claims of American Indian ancestry are a valid concern for actual citizens of recognized American Indian nations. Federal- and state-recognized nations depend on limited funding and services. With the boom in indian casino gambling, many unscrupulous individuals and bogus ‘tribes’ have sought to exploit these resources.

      The point may be subtle, but it is very important, and for Warren and her supporters to callously dismiss it is wrong.

  18. Chukar
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:24 pm | Permalink

    A topic related to one’s presumed
    relatives.

    Infidelity to one’s spouse is pretty common throughout human history. It’s frequency must be at least partially influenced by one’s culture, but I doubt that there ever was a culture where it was absent.

    The Muslim custom of “sequestering” their women must be credited to their recognition of widespread infidelity and chastity-breaking when offered the opportunity.

    It would be interesting to do a cross-cultural study of the likelihood that one is not actually related to one’s presumed grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.

    It was discovered in recent decades that among American Wood-Warblers about 25% of eggs in a nest were not fertilized by the male attending that nest. I would not be shocked to learn that human “infidelity” ran at similar levels.

    In short – don’t get too excited about your presumed genetic heritage. That guy you call your great-great-grandfather quite likely wasn’t.

    • infiniteimprobabilit
      Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:39 am | Permalink

      Reminds me of this –

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOaeCG4CIwU

      His mama she laughed, she said go man, go
      Your daddy ain’t your daddy, but your daddy don’t know

      😉

      cr

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 11:54 am | Permalink

      It would be interesting to do a cross-cultural study of the likelihood that one is not actually related to one’s presumed grandfather, great-grandfather, etc.

      In his Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland (UK title: Blood of the Isles), Bryan Sykes reports on a historical paternity analysis. IIRC, false paternity was quite low, c. 3%. Sykes also tested the lineage of the present-day heads of the Scottish clans, and found each to be the true heirs.

  19. Caldwell
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    Yes, it would irk me if I were in the Cherokee tribe and somebody claimed membership without documentation.

    What if they claimed to be Jews or not Jews without their “papers” and badges?

    So to speak.

    ?

    Just to clarify: it shouldn’t matter. The people who think that being, or claiming to be, part Cherokee is important (e.g. Harvard) are the problem.

  20. E.A. Blair
    Posted October 5, 2018 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

    Sometimes these family traditions actually have a basis in fact. My maternal grandmother’s family had a tradition that Thomas Jefferson was lurking in the family tree, and a cousin who took an interest in genealogy investigated and found out that grandma was a direct descendant of one of Jefferson’s sisters, making him a multi-great uncle.

    It’s probably a safe bet that anyone whose family can be traced back that far has some Native American in the gene pool. The possibility of intermarriage also seems plausible when you consider that Ms Warren’s family is from Oklahoma, much of which was, until statehood in 1907, was still designated “Indian Territory”.

    • Posted October 6, 2018 at 11:46 am | Permalink

      When presented with hard evidence that her family lore was completely false, Warren refused to respond, instead reaffirming her non-existent American Indian ancestry.

      Warren’s inability to admit an honest mistake is one thing. Her unjustified claim of a federal minority designation to promote her career is much worse. Her stubborn refusal to let go of a childhood fantasy is quite disturbing.

      • Posted October 6, 2018 at 11:53 am | Permalink

        Perhaps for Warren honoring her family’s memories is more important than rejecting a childhood fantasy.

        • Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:22 pm | Permalink

          Honoring family memories does not necessitate a knowingly fraudulent claim of federal minority status.

  21. infiniteimprobabilit
    Posted October 6, 2018 at 4:12 am | Permalink

    “I held my nose and voted for Hillary, and maintain that this would be a better country had she won.”

    Almost certainly. It could hardly be worse than it is.

    Besides, who cares? (About Warren’s maybe-Cherokee genes). Surely it’s policies rather than personal history that matters. The right-wing Repubs who hold-their-nose-and-vote-for-Trump (or Kavanaugh) realise that.

    In 20 years time nobody will give a toss whether Trump worked his way through the entire list of Miss World 1999 contestants in alphabetical order. What they will care about are the dire consequences Trump has had for the environment, for international relations, for the global economy, and maybe for a lot of American women who can’t get the abortions they need because the fundies were so keen to impose their bigoted ‘morals’ on everybody else they abandoned their own.

    [/rant]

    cr

    • Posted October 27, 2018 at 5:19 pm | Permalink

      There is a probability that voters will care.

  22. Posted October 6, 2018 at 11:38 am | Permalink

    1) Warren claimed first to be 1/32 Cherokee, then later 1/64 Cherokee & 1/64 Delaware. These claims were based entirely on family lore about a grandfather with “high cheekbones” and an elopement forced by racial prejudice;

    2)For the three federally-recognized Cherokee nations, citizenship is not contingent on blood quantum, but rather on having at least one ancestor on the so-called Dawes Rolls;

    3) Genealogist Twila Barnes has conclusively shown that Warren has no Dawes Roll ancestors. The supposed elopement was in fact a large, formal wedding held in the local church. In sad irony, one of Warren’s ancestors was an armed guard who herded the Cherokee on the infamous Trail of Tears;

    4)Federal requirements for claiming American Indian status include formal membership in the tribe and active participation in tribal life. Warren fails these tests (though she did once submit James Beard’s recipe for crab dip to a fake indian cookbook);

    5) In a professionals’ recruiting guide and on her job application to Harvard, Warren claimed federally-designated Native American status;

    6) When announcing her hiring, Harvard described Warren as a “minority” (that is, Native American,) counting Warren toward minority hire quotas;

    7) As American Indian ‘tribes’ are in fact sovereign nations with citizens, and dependent upon federal funds and often competing for state funds with spurious local tribes, flippant claims of Indian ancestry are of great concern. During Warren’s senate campaign, Barnes and three other Cherokee representatives — all of them Democratic voters — asked Warren to meet and discuss these concerns. Warren rebuffed them while continuing to assert her Cherokee status in public.

    Warren’s persistent & stubborn mendacity on her spurious American Indian ancestry rises to the level of fabulism. Given her many other misrepresentations about her past, which includes preying on holders of underwater mortgages, practicing law without a license, and portraying herself as fighting for the little guy when in fact her entire legal career was specialized in setting up sham corporate entities to avoid liability payments, pensions, and worker’s compensation, political partisanship must not deter a hard look at Warren’s suitability for high office.

  23. Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:19 pm | Permalink

    I can’t conceive of any liberal not voting for Warren because of this claim.

    I am one.

    It is hypocritical for liberals to decry conservatives who supported BK despite his obvious perjury, then to sweep under the rug Warren’s clear and lengthy track record of deceit, willful misrepresentation, and sheer fabulism.

  24. Posted October 6, 2018 at 12:55 pm | Permalink

    In respect for the house rule on not dominating a discussion, I will step back for a bit and instead refer everyone to the exhaustive research and documentation compiled by genealogist Twila Barnes. It includes not just Barnes’ findings on Warren’s ancestry, but also comprehensive summaries of Warren’s minority status other claims.

    http://www.pollysgranddaughter.com/p/elizabeth-warren-information.html

    • Diane G
      Posted October 7, 2018 at 1:49 am | Permalink

      Per Snopes, the situation is far less clear:

      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/elizabeth-warren-wealthy-native-american/

      • Posted October 7, 2018 at 11:31 am | Permalink

        That’s mostly about the value of her house.

        Regarding her minority status claims, Snopes writes “… specific evidence that she gained her position at Harvard (at least in part) through her claims to Native American heritage is lacking.”

        It would be difficult indeed to find tangible evidence that Penn or Harvard were influenced by her minority status claim.

        Nevertheless, Warren most definitely falsely listed herself as a federally-designated minority, and both her employers formally described her as such. Given the intense pressure on universities to display diversity in hiring, it defies credulity that Warren was not cognizant that her claimed minority status would boost her desirability, or that Warren did not make those false representations on her job applications for that expressed purpose, (as opposed to her claim she just wanted to meet fellow native americans for tea.)


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