Local transgender student with penis sues school district to be allowed to change clothes openly in woman’s locker room

There are now two lawsuits in the Chicago area brought by transgender students who, granted access to the women’s locker room for changing, were requested to change behind a “privacy curtain” or a secluded area because they have male genitals.  The genital aspect of this case isn’t mentioned in the Chicago Tribune article below, but I heard it on the local NPR station. Click on the link for the story of one of these students (the other is anonymous); the story has a video of the student:

NPR also said that Nova Maday is being represented by the ACLU in her lawsuit.

I’m conflicted by this story, and decided to throw it out for discussion. And my conflict is because this student still has male genitalia. Had she fully transitioned, I wouldn’t have any problem with her being allowed to change with other female students.  But with a penis?

I suspect that some of the other female students would object to undressing with a student having male equipment, though no news story reports the reaction of the students, and it would probably be a violation of their privacy to ask. But if they do object, don’t we have to balance the transgender student’s wishes against those of the women students? After all, baring your woman’s body in front of a body with a penis could cause substantial distress.

I’m particularly interested in what women readers have to say about this. Think back to when you were in high school, and in the locker room. Would you have cared if there was somebody with a penis in there? At any rate, vote below, but also please leave a comment about your opinion on these two cases.

193 Comments

  1. Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:39 pm | Permalink

    There seems to me to be a fundamental contradiction in gender ideology.

    In the first place, we’re told that gender is not a simple binary, and that lots of people don’t fit into the two neat categories “male” or “female”. (I agree with this, though about 99% of people do indeed fit one of those two.)

    Then, however, we’re told that, when it comes to locker-rooms, the only options are the two neat categories, and that a transgender girl is “just as female as all the other females” and must be “treated just like any other girl”. Nothing in-between is acceptable.

    • GBJames
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:47 pm | Permalink

      Indeed.

    • Jenny Haniver
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:02 pm | Permalink

      Good point. What to do with all the xems, sherms, and vers, those who reject binary genders? I guess they should have locker rooms for them, too. But this person is insisting on identifying as female, not indeterminate or fluid, even though this person is anatomically male. Call me old fashioned, but I would not want to be in a women’s locker room with a man.

    • Leigh
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:40 pm | Permalink

      In reply to Coel: I’m not sure I understand your point. This girl says “I want to be treated just like any other girl.” Why do you have a problem with that? Also, this girl is a taking Girls PE class. Where other than the girls locker room should she change?

      It seems to me we are asking this student to shoulder our burdens. We are uncomfortable with her, therefore she needs to accept being shunned. Is that your position?

      In the newspaper article she says that most students do not have a problem with her. Based on my experience as a teacher, I agree. Most students do not have a problem accepting students who are other than heterosexual. I think it is telling that the opposition is coming from parents not the students themselves.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

        Where other than the girls locker room should she change?

        How about behind the privacy curtain, as requested by the school? Which seems a reasonable compromise.

        This girl says “I want to be treated just like any other girl.”

        But she’s not “just like” any other girl, so the above suggestion seems reasonable.

        • nicky
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

          The ‘vote’ appears to concur with you here.
          And so do I.

          • Craw
            Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:29 pm | Permalink

            No, the vote is almost 80% against this compromise. Freely means no restrictions, no screens.

        • Leigh
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:47 pm | Permalink

          The “best” solution might be to add privacy screens to all locker rooms and let those who wish to use them do so. The choice would rest with the student (where it belongs) rather than being coerced by adults.

          YES! This student is a girl and deserves to be treated like every other girl. Those of you who vote no want her to be treated like a freak who needs to hide or be hidden. I can’t understand why you think thats OK.

          • Filippo
            Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

            If any student refuses to use a locker room, is that OK with you?

            • gravelinspector-Aidan
              Posted January 20, 2018 at 11:05 pm | Permalink

              Almost certainly schools have had to cross this bridge already. A significant number of septs of religions have an absolute bn on anyone seeing “the nakedness” of someone who is not their spouse or child. CF, the Noah/ Ham story, Genesis 9 20-29. Jews and derivatives (Christians, Muslims, Mormons) have various degrees of problems with nakedness.

              I would expect that the first time a school (local authority) had a complaint from any of these groups about the “Curse of Ham” (nakedness, not a bit of taste-enhancing mould), they’d start partitioning a significant number of individual changing chambers within locker rooms, and that number is only going to increase. Likewise, communal toilets are going to be on the way out.

              Maybe everyone – male or female – should wear a koteka as part of their day to day clothing, to both obfuscate their gender identity and prevent accidental “showing of their nakedness” to others. (Link probably not safe for work.) There are probably god-squaddies who would think this an excellent idea.

            • Filippo
              Posted January 23, 2018 at 9:21 pm | Permalink

              I note that Leigh apparently declines to answer me.

          • chris moffatt
            Posted January 21, 2018 at 9:32 am | Permalink

            I can’t understand why you think he is like every other girl when he plainly isn’t.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:17 pm | Permalink

        I do not think that she should be given every single thing she wants.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:22 pm | Permalink

        There have been quite a few lesbian women-only organizations that been deliberately harassed by men who identify as women to the point where the women’s groups have ‘gone off the grid’ and no longer use social media to accept new members or advertise.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

        We all have to accommodate society to some degree. Nowhere is it written that we all get what we want. Privacy curtains sounds like a good compromise but can a student with more-difficult-to-meet-demands be forced to use them? I would be ok if they were for the aforementioned reason.

      • BillF
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 8:44 am | Permalink

        Thinking of the best interests of this trans girl,it seems that what she wants is to be fully accepted as a girl.

        Showing the other girls that she has male genitalia would work against that, I would think.

        If using the curtained-off area is too obvious, perhaps she could could change in a stall in the bathroom.

      • Max Blancke
        Posted January 22, 2018 at 4:13 pm | Permalink

        I fundamental problem with the gender shifting viewpoint is that a boy might say that he wants to be a girl, but really means that he wants to experience what he imagines life as a girl to be.
        Those preconceptions are pretty common when discussing people who want to be or experience something that they cannot readily become or do. And when the reality of it does not match the idealized preconception, it can lead to depression or anger.

  2. Ken Phelps
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:42 pm | Permalink

    Why is it again that the slippery slope fallacy became a fallacy?

    • Jenny Haniver
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

      Don’t you mean “…became a phallacy”?

  3. Randall Schenck
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:45 pm | Permalink

    Maybe because I am old and old fashion, I would vote no on this. The vast majority of the females in the locker room should not have to accept this. Turn it around and the same should apply in the male locker room. They should not have accept a guy in the room who had a vagina.

    • Liz
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      I voted yes in error having misunderstood the question. My vote is no. I would not have cared. Same comments as previously posted.

      • Liz
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

        Never mind. Not in error. Yes, they should.

    • Martin X
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

      Not quite the same. Most guys probably wouldn’t care.

      • Randall Schenck
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:48 pm | Permalink

        I think probably is the key word. If we are talking about a bunch of high school age “guys” I think you would have more problem than you want.

    • nicky
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:21 pm | Permalink

      For some reason or other, I have this idea there is no symmetry, that only very few males in the locker room would object to a ‘male’ with a vagina. And if so, mainly because they would not feel free to use Mr Trump’s type of locker room talk -if existent at all. 🙂

  4. piercyplace
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:54 pm | Permalink

    Ironically, when I was in high school (early 1980s in the southern U.S.), I think almost *all* of the girls would have preferred to have private, curtained areas to change behind. There are fewer things a teenage girl wants to do than have her body open to the inspection of a bunch of other catty teenage girls. No one ever used the showers, which were not private, for that very reason. Even now, I find at most swimming pools that women are more likely to change in the bathroom stalls if they are stripping down completely than to stay in the open areas of a restroom or changing room.

    Maybe the solution is to provide curtained changing stalls for all students who want to use them. I can definitely appreciate that it would not be safe for these students to change in the boys’ locker room, but girls’ desire for privacy needs to be accommodated as well.

    • Rita
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

      I completely agree.

    • nicky
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

      The shame is equal, if not more so, in the male locker room/showers. Penis size being the object of shyness there.

      • Liz
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

        It doesn’t matter the size of the penis because most women don’t orgasm through sexual intercourse anyway. It might feel good with any size penis, but it usually isn’t orgasming. Shame in penis size is also an error. There’s no basis for it.

        • bundorgarden
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:47 pm | Permalink

          Well, speak for yourself……

          • Liz
            Posted January 21, 2018 at 2:44 pm | Permalink

            Noted. It is something like 75-80 percent of women do not orgasm through intercourse. I do not recall the articles but women can also have orgasms through anal and nipple stimulation. This is in addition to the g-spot and clitoral orgasm. I have personally had the g-spot orgasm only three times (there was the female ejaculate). It felt very good but there was no release with them. I prefer clitoral orgasms. I’ve never had a nipple or anal induced orgasm. I believe most women (75-80%) do not orgasm via intercourse. “Sex Study Says Female Orgasm Eludes Majority of Women” – ABC News is what I found. It’s from 2009.

            • Posted January 21, 2018 at 6:42 pm | Permalink

              TMI

              • Filippo
                Posted January 26, 2018 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

                By what per cent did the poster post TMI? Would you care to suggest some self-censorship guidelines?

              • Posted January 26, 2018 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

                @ Filippo,

                I do not find as germane to the topic of transgender use of locker rooms, the techniques by which the commenter in question achieves orgasm.

        • Michael
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:52 pm | Permalink

          And yet it exists.

        • nicky
          Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:45 am | Permalink

          It is a source of shame in the showers, regardless of female orgasm.
          Moreover, -and this is a different point- most boys simply do not believe that PC stance about ‘size doesn’t matter’.

        • Posted January 21, 2018 at 5:51 am | Permalink

          The size of a woman’s breasts don’t really matter but tens of thousands of women have surgical enhancement. Most men know that the size of a flaccid penis can vary by several hundred percent depending on ambient temperature but one of the cruellest things that a woman could do would be to mock a man for the size of his penis. Like it or not, appearances do count.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:24 pm | Permalink

      Also agree.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:26 pm | Permalink

      Sounds good but it doesn’t really solve the problem as long as there is a common area where they disrobe — using the individual stalls is not required, in other words.

  5. Heather Hastie
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:56 pm | Permalink

    I voted no, but it wasn’t an easy decision. Unlike how men imagine a women’s locker room to be, we all change facing the wall with our backs to each other. It’s unlikely we’d see male genitalia.

    What I’d be more interested to know is the sexuality of the student. If she’s a lesbian, it would be no issue if she didn’t have a penis. However, if there’s a possibility she might get an erection, I think a privacy curtain would be a good idea.

    • Jenny Haniver
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

      To emend my previous comment, I do think the privacy curtain is fine; but this person does not want to be so segregated. I think it’s more than just looking at a penis; there’s a kind of culture of familiarity based on gender that exists in locker rooms that’s more than just about external genitalia. This person would surely feel excluded when she simply could not participate in the culture of females who have been females since birth (I mean before for instance, cis females of that age menstruate this female can’t. They talk about having their periods, laugh, joke, complain, and sometimes ask one another for a sanitary pad or tampon. That’s just one example. Would she complain that they can’t discuss such things because she’s excluded?

      • Heather Hastie
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:17 pm | Permalink

        The thing is, it’s always going to be difficult as long as she identifies with one gender, but has the body of another. She wants it to be easy, which is perfectly understandable, but that’s just not possible. I feel sorry for her – it’s hard enough being a teenager without extra issues to deal with – but sometimes things aren’t going to go the way she’d like.

        • nicky
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:40 pm | Permalink

          Yes Heather, I tend to agree that it is not easy.
          A male who feels completely female, we do not want to impose penis-removing surgery.
          I’m probably insensitive, but I have this impression that most ‘trans-sexuality’ is a fad. There, I’ve said it, waiting for the flak now 🙂 . Like I had periods in my early life I wanted to be female, but later I realised it was not really so, or rather really not so. More like a phase, and a fantasy.
          I think there are very few real transsexuals (although I do not deny their existence).

    • chris moffatt
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 9:39 am | Permalink

      Noting that the key word in the question was “freely”. I take that to mean no privacy curtain, no individual changing cubicles.

  6. Geoff Toscano
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

    I voted no. One of my responses to those who say that transgender people (mainly male I suppose), shouldn’t be allowed to use the ‘other’ bathroom, is that there’s usually loads of privacy available. Of course, if full physical changes have been done then there should be no problem, but revealing genitalia in full view is going too far. If it were the position whereby a ‘man’ exposed breasts then I’d be uncomfortable.

    It seems to me that this sort of case is misconceived as it will play into the hands of conservatives.

  7. Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:00 pm | Permalink

    So, let’s not mince words: we’re asking should a castrated boy be allowed to use the girls locker room? Well, according to Laura Betzig, it was good enough for the kings and sultans of old, when it came to policing their harems.

    The idea behind all of this, as Betzig makes clear, is control over genetic interests. If the male is castrated, there’s less threat to the genetic interests of the girls — and their parents, who most definitely have a genetic interest in such matters, and are strangely excluded from such discussions. (I’ve heard of a school board forbidding teachers to tell parents that boys were sleeping in the same camp cabins as their daughters.)

    Given the nature of these genetic interests, it is the standard social engineering anti-biology nonsense of the totalitarian left which insists on pushing these agendas. The issue here isn’t justice for transgenders, that’s merely the pretext. (And the fact that we’d even entertain the idea that teenage boys should be castrated to accommodate such a pretext is dispiriting.) The real goal is a rebellion against human nature; a vicious punch in the face of the values that have sustained fitness for eons. Such enterprises have generally ended in widespread misery and barbarism. I fear we’re back on that merry-go-round.

    • Michael Fisher
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

      Is Maday castrated [testicles removed]? Where did you read that or have I missed something in the story?

      • Jan Looman
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

        Not physically – that is the issue. However she is chemically castrated. Once you get enough of the female hormones the likelihood of an erection is minimal.

        • Michael Fisher
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

          How do you know she is chemically castrated? There is nothing in the report about what medical treatments she’s on that I could see.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

      (I’ve heard of a school board forbidding teachers to tell parents that boys were sleeping in the same camp cabins as their daughters.)

      Where’d you hear that?

      And what do you mean by “genetic interests”?

    • nicky
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:55 pm | Permalink

      I hold Laura Betzig in very high esteem, but we are not talking about eunuchs here. Hence there is no need to get her or harem-keeping Sultans ‘involved’ here.
      We are talking about a fully biological male who feels he (she) is a female.
      I’m sorry, but having a penis and testicles she is not just ‘another’ girl, nor an eunuch.

      • Jenny Haniver
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

        I’d not known of Laura Betzig. Just checked her out. Really fascinating stuff she’s into.

  8. Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:01 pm | Permalink

    There are actually two issues here. One is that women might not wish to share a changing room with a naked man. The other is that they might not wish to be naked in front of a man.

    Separate changing rooms were devised to provide facilities for different sexes, not genders. The distinction between ‘sex’ and ‘gender’ came later. Sex is binary. It’s easy enough to provide two sets of facilities. Gender apparently exists as a ‘spectrum’. You’d need an infinite number of changing rooms to accommodate them all.

    • Jenny Haniver
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      Sex is binary? What about intersexed people, of which there are many varieties?

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:40 pm | Permalink

        Intersex people have ambiguous genitalia or otherwise present phenotypically atypical of their sex.

        They are still either male or female.

        There no such sex as ‘intersex’.

        • Travis
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:18 pm | Permalink

          It all comes down to whether or not there is an Y chromosome. Doesn’t matter how many Xs or Ys as long as there is a Y you are considered male, afaik.

        • Jenny Haniver
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:32 pm | Permalink

          Granted, all this is way above my pay grade, but I’ve seen the word “intersex” used in medical books instead of using “hermaphrodite.” And re the related comment by “Travis” below — what about mosaic genes and chimerism? My questions aren’t meant to infer contradiction — I’m genuinely puzzled.

          • Posted January 21, 2018 at 6:55 pm | Permalink

            A true hermaphrodite has both male and female sex organs, thus confirming the sex binary. In any case, they are exceedingly rare.

            Other intersex conditions are the result of breakdowns in sex determination &/or embryology of the binary sex system. Most are infertile, and the fertile ones are either as male or female. Intersex is the exception that proves the rule.

            As far as we can know, Maday is typically male in karyotype and phenotype, or at least displays (no pun intended) a distinctively male phenotype. This is true for the vast majority of trans.

        • nicky
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:04 pm | Permalink

          Well, yes and no. Hermaphroditism does exist, and their biological sex can sometimes be a moot subject.
          I think it has little to do with ‘transsexuality’ though.

          • Posted January 21, 2018 at 6:58 pm | Permalink

            Intersex has nothing to do with trans identity, yet is repeatedly thrown out as a red herring.

      • Walter Nerseian
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

        “Let me first say that if you examine newborn humans, a very small fraction won’t be assignable unambiguously to “male” or “female” based on genitalia, or even chromosomes. Sometimes “intersex” infants have ambiguous genitalia, or even both forms, and there are also XXY and XO babies who show intermediate traits. But these are extremely rare. For all practical purposes, as we know well, newborns fall neatly into the classes of “biologically male” and “biologically female”. This is similar to virtually all other animals.”
        from a previous post by Jerry

        • Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

          Quite. There chromosomal abnormalities but they are just that; they are abnormalities. XXY karyotype is still male even if they are infertile. A bit of acne doesn’t make XYY karyotype less male either. XO is female. Nobody is producing a third type of gamete.

          I wonder how intersex and gay people feel about being dragged into the transgender argument all the time? The vast majority of transgender people aren’t intersex and while some lesbians might agree gender is a social construct most aren’t willing to accommodate a girlfriend with a penis.

          • Jenny Haniver
            Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

            I think you just answered the question I just posted before I saw this comment of yours. I wonder the same thing about intersex and gay people.

          • nicky
            Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:14 pm | Permalink

            Yaes it is simple , if there is a Y chromosome: male.
            However, some do not respond to these male hormones, or only partially, and we get Caster Semenya, (‘yes a secret male’ just juggle the letters) and will have a ‘female’ phenotype.
            Still, I think this has little to do with our transsexuals.

      • Max Blancke
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

        Truly intersexed people are very rare. A person with Congenital adrenal hyperplasia, which is the most common form of intersex disorder, still leaves the person recognizably of one sex, but might result in a female with excess body hair, a failure to menstruate, or an enlarged clitoris. A male with CAH might go through puberty early. It is largely treatable.

        Speaking of such rarities here sort of derails the topic. A girl in the locker room who takes meds to treat an endocrine disorder is very unlikely to cause the same locker room disruptions as would a teenage boy who feels inside that they wish they had been born a girl.

        The root of the issue, in my opinion, is whether there are valid reasons why we should have separate changing, showering, and bathroom facilities, or not. I grew up in a culture where mixed-sex nudity was very common. But that is about people raised from a very young age to be comfortable with nudity. It seems a completely different thing to just involuntarily plunge 14-18 year old girls into such situations. This kid feels that their experiment in exploring female sexuality involves seeing and being seen by teenage girls while they are changing clothes and showering. I don’t think it is right to force all the other kids to participate in the experiment.

        • Ken Phelps
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 5:39 pm | Permalink

          +1 – This kid needs a responsible adult to explain that in a situation that has no simple solution, it is sometimes necessary to respect other people’s feelings. This controversy seems to be about a self-centered young person who places little value on the emotional needs of others.

  9. Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    If the person thinks they are a girl, even if they have a penis, then they should pee in the girl’s bathroom.

    I can only imagine how uncomfortable I would be if I had to pee in the girls bathroom.

    The largest and most important sex organ in our body: the brain.

    I vote yes. And anyone who considers themselves a male can pee next to me.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

      I can only imagine how uncomfortable I would be if I had to pee in the girls bathroom

      And can you imagine how uncomfortable it would be to be a woman if a man is peeing next to you?

      There isn’t an ideal solution to this issue where everyone is going to come out comforatable.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:51 pm | Permalink

        I admit I’ve been in lots of women’s bathrooms (alone or with permission). I’ve never been in one that did not have a stalls or was at least single toilet with option to lock door.

        Not ideal, but realistically most women with a penis would, in principle, never have to show their stuff to another women.

        • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

          In all places where I have studied and worked, women’s bathrooms had no option to lock the door. They were designed with the idea that nobody with a penis would enter. Nevertheless, when I was young, I felt so uncomfortable in them that I endured for 8-10-12 hours until I got home. To me, punishing normal girls by forcing them to endure the presence of an individual with a penis is outrageous.

          • Michael Waterhouse
            Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:10 am | Permalink

            As a shy guy, I can sympathise.

            As for punishing normal girls by forcing them to endure the presence of a penis, I agree completely, it is outrageous.

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:09 pm | Permalink

      I agree with you about peeing in a bathroom. But the issue here concerns changing in a locker-room, which means an open dressing area rather than individual stalls, as I understand it.

  10. John Conoboy
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

    I never understood why we force kids in school to change and shower with others. I hated it when I had to do this as a young teen, even after I became involved in sports and lost weight. Kids can be self conscious about their bodies and they deserve privacy. Not just related to sex organs, but body fat, birth marks, moles, and other features that they may not want others to see. And, why should any individual be forced to see others naked? When they are adults, they can choose when and with whom they get naked.

    • Mark R.
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:19 pm | Permalink

      Having not reached puberty (or having reached it) is also a big reason kids don’t like being naked in front of others. I was a “late bloomer” and during 7th and 8th grade was “bald”. Most kids didn’t care, but some made fun of me…once even in the hallway. That sucked.

      • Christopher
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:44 pm | Permalink

        I nearly got into a fight once, defending a friend who was being teased for being overweight. It was and still is a troubling situation for me seeing him shirtless in the locker room with tears streaming down his cheeks while another student made fun of his body. There is much more to this issue than a penis, no matter what the claimed or assumed gender identity might be. It is at least in part about a dysfunctional culture that obsesses over sex and nudity, demanding people be both puritanical and exhibitionist while also punishing both, depending on who, what, and when. Thus we have women raging against the sight, hell, even the mention of a penis as the same as rape yet demanding a male who identifies as a woman be allowed to get out “her” penis in front of other girls! I’m afraid that so long as we continue to obsess over sex and nudity that there will be no satisfactory answers to this issue and we are clearly headed into a regressive Victorian mindset over sex and nudity so I’m afraid we’re all metaphorically f@cked for at least a generation, if not longer.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:55 pm | Permalink

        In swimming locker rooms, kids who start puberty are the ones who tend to be the most timid. Boys starting puberty, who used to shower without suits, now wear them all the time and will only change suit-underwear with shirt on first.

        Transition period is the worst; before and after, not so bad.

        • Filippo
          Posted January 26, 2018 at 6:04 pm | Permalink

          I may possibly have previously mentioned this.

          As regards the issue of privacy, I’m reminded of when I was baptized in the Southern Baptist Church. After being immersed, I necessarily needed to change clothes in the closest men’s restroom, which had no stalls. (At the time I thought that surely the women’s restroom had stalls.)

          Choosing to take the positive interpretive high road, I can understand how a well-meaning deacon of the church might stick his head in the door – once, if at all – to check on the recently-baptized nine-year-old. But more than once? Did he think that suddenly I had lost the wherewithal to manage my personal business, temporarily addled by my dunking? This prince of a fellow had to stick his head in the door (no lock) three times to “check on” me. “Are you all right?” I guess he wondered why I was taking so long. Of course it was because I hesitated changing because I never knew when he was going to open the bloody door. So finally I put my dry pants on over my wet underwear, the lesser embarrassment in my view.

    • Michael Fisher
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:22 pm | Permalink

      Surely a large element of your shame & embarrassment is social conditioning. Why would you want to institutionalise / formalise semi-public nakedness as a ‘bad thing’?

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

        It’s only ‘social conditioning’ that tells women to be uncomfortable if Louis CK masturbates in front of them. It doesn’t physically harm them.

        Maybe in countries where there are no taboos about nudity this wouldn’t be a problem but you can’t just tell women to suck it up, that other student has a lady-cock, get used to it.

        • Michael Fisher
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:38 pm | Permalink

          Speaker: I haven’t expressed an opinion about this case – I am addressing the subject of body shame & body shaming. The culture of the USA [& almost as much now the UK] has caught itself in a trap where bodily perfection is lauded above PhDs & character. It is no wonder that John Conoboy feels the way he does, but that doesn’t mean attitudes can’t change!

          • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

            It’s not about body shaming. Nobody is suggesting separate changing rooms for fat kids or even kids who haven’t yet reached puberty. The reason some girls might object to men in their changing room isn’t because their other class mates might have larger breasts. They’re not thinking, oh dear, that girl has a penis and I haven’t even shaved my legs.

            • Michael Fisher
              Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:57 pm | Permalink

              I am addressing John’s feelings about body shame & body shaming. Please don’t try to shepherd my conversation.

      • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:06 pm | Permalink

        It is institutionalized. By all means, advocate for uni-sex locker rooms in high schools if you wish. I wish you luck with that.

        What Maday, et al. seek is to participate in that institutionalized system, only be granted an exception to the rules.

        • Michael Fisher
          Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:38 pm | Permalink

          Matt. Refer to my replies to animal in this sub-thread to save me repeating myself. Take on board that I’m not advocating policy adjustments & I’ve not expressed an opinion on this specific U.S. case.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

      Agreed. No one should be forced to disrobe in front of others… regardless of the genders of the individuals involved. Maybe it would be good if no one cared about human nudity or the appearance of human bodies, but we are not there yet.

    • Christopher
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:31 pm | Permalink

      Yes, my thoughts and feelings exactly!

      Part of the issue for me is, on the other hand, that we still live with the cultural baggage that generations ago became so obsessed with sex and bodies in the first place, but try as I might, I am not comfortable with getting naked in front of others, penis or no penis, nor am I comfortable with them getting naked in front of me (not including relationships, obviously). I wish I felt otherwise, maybe more like some European or Scandinavian cultures, but I do struggle to bear (bare? 😬) the burden of my particular enculturation.

      • Jenny Haniver
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:32 pm | Permalink

        ditto to +1

    • Rita
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

      +1

    • Martin X
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:47 pm | Permalink

      Well, school is all about forcing kids to do stuff that makes them uncomfortable, so I don’t think that’s a good argument against this practice. Public speaking makes kids uncomfortable, too, and you don’t fix this by having them wait until they’re adults before they confront it.

      Private dressing and showering facilities also presents logistical problems when you’re trying to get 50 kids or so dressed and clean in just a few minutes.

      • piercyplace
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:08 pm | Permalink

        No, school is not all about forcing kids to do stuff that makes them uncomfortable, though that sometimes occurs. School is about teaching young people the information and skills they need to become independent adults. Being able to speak in public is a skill (though whether it’s necessary to independent adult life is questionable). Being able to feel okay with being naked in a crowd is neither, and is not part of any school’s mandate–indeed, if it were, the transgender students could readily be told to “suck it up” and use the boys’ locker room.

        The logistical concern is more relevant, though I still don’t see why there couldn’t be the option of both changing stalls and open spaces for both boys’ and girls’ changing rooms. After all, don’t most men’s restrooms have stalls (private) and urinals (public)? And while I recognize that a man can’t do all his restroom business at a urinal, guys are allowed to use the stalls simply to pee if they wish.

      • Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:16 pm | Permalink

        Well, school is all about forcing kids to do stuff that makes them uncomfortable

        No, it isn’t. It’s about educating them. Any discomfort they might feel is an unintended consequence of that education. You don’t make them uncomfortable just for the sake of making them uncomfortable. Education isn’t supposed to be Tom Brown’s Schooldays or Ripping Yarns.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:37 pm | Permalink

        In my youth, there was a military draft in place, and everyone’s father had served his time in WW2. Getting used to communal showers was considered something of a rite of passage for young men, and anyone who couldn’t bear to bare it, was probably heading for a 4-F classification. (In a similar vein, most fathers encouraged their sons not to be picky eaters, since they might have to spend a couple years living on “SOS” and K-rations.)

        I offer that solely for descriptive purposes of a particular time in the USA, not as a normative standard for modern school kids.

      • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

        Wow. Comparing encouraging teenagers to speak in public with forcing them to get naked among members of the opposite sex. Easily the most ludicrous false equivalency I’ve heard in a very long time.

  11. Bill Bass
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:07 pm | Permalink

    Since this transgender stuff is now coming out into the open, I guess we have no option but to deal with it. Once the other girls have seen the offending penis a few times, the newness will be over and most people will no longer care. But, of course that little piece of skin will be more than some less stable girls can stand.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:32 pm | Permalink

      To me, it is the transgender girl who is “less stable”.

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:12 pm | Permalink

      Prude-shaming teenage girls FTW.

  12. jose
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:08 pm | Permalink

    The feminist argument is not about distress caused by sight of genitalia. It’s about preventing material harm, i.e. physical abuse, sexual assault. It’s the same argument to keep men out, including homosexual men. Nothing whatsoever to do with gender identity.

  13. Liz
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

    Yes. Male and female locker rooms should be mixed in the first place. The fact that this society has shame, secrecy, sacredness, and anything else like this associated with nakedness is a deeply ingrained error. Humans are not special or sacred when it comes to sex and sex differences. We are animals. Nakedness is natural and appropriate. I understand that people are old fashioned. I am too. This is what is correct, though.

    • Michael Fisher
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

      Absolutely!

    • Mark R.
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

      I blame religion for a lot of the attitudes you describe. I agree with you that nakedness is natural, though I don’t think there are any countries (a quick google search confirmed this) that allow public co-ed locker rooms.

    • mdeschane
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

      You echo my thoughts. I voted yes also, but I am male and my thoughts may be occluded by testosterone.

    • mikeyc
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

      I understand what you are saying; we are far to prudish about our bodies. I agree.

      But I think your solution doesn’t work either. The reality of sexual attraction between people makes a common locker room scenario unworkable, IMO. As someone up thread noted, there are few people who would want to use a locker room with someone who is sexually aroused.

      Changing our culture’s views to better accept nakedness is a good idea, but there will always be complications and for the same reasons; we are a sexual species. Sexuality plays a big role in our species, bigger than most. I don’t think we could be (nor, frankly, would I prefer it) be able to completely suppress something that is at the core of our being.

      I feel if we can reach a place where we are not so ashamed of our bodies but also respect the consequences of sexuality and try to find a middle way, many of these issues we have wouldn’t be issues at all.

      • Liz
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:19 pm | Permalink

        I agree specifically with the last paragraph. Clothing reinforces the suppression. Clothing is necessary for protection from the environment. It is not necessary to suppress or control sexuality. However it originated in the latter sense is a mistake. Also in that sense, I don’t see any difference between clothing and the hijab. I am not pushing hard for this or anything, but am pointing out what is correct. Babies need clothing for protection. At the right age, grown children should be able to figure out what they need to wear to protect themselves and be comfortable. It really shouldn’t be a matter of legality at all.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      “We are animals. Nakedness is natural”
      So is rape.
      “and appropriate”
      This is what is in contention actually.

      Now I’m not making the argument that there is any danger of rape here, I’m just pointing out that you cannot resolve this issue with naturalistic fallacies.

      The same social conventions that make Nova Maday want to use a “girls” locker room are the same ones making other people uncomfortable. Acting as if only her feelings are important here will not advance the issue.

      My personal view on the subject is to provide sheltered changing areas for all, and this was my view before the trans angle was discussed, and it hasn’t changed.

    • Michael Waterhouse
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:16 am | Permalink

      Really? And should anybody be able to just start ‘doing it’ wherever and whenever they like?

      • Liz
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 9:25 am | Permalink

        Sex is not sinful, special, sacred, shameful, or inappropriate. Why is it illegal, for example, to have sex in the woods along the hiking path of a state park? It seems like it’s not the best idea but why is that? What is the reason for that?

    • Eric Grobler
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 1:17 am | Permalink

      Yes, lets start trendy workplaces where everyone in the office is naked and natural.

      “Humans are not special or sacred when it comes to sex and sex differences.”
      We are not sacred but we are definitely special. We are the naked ape for God sake!

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:14 pm | Permalink

      Maday is not asking for unisex locker rooms, rather to be allowed to use the segregated locker room of zir preference.

  14. chris
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:28 pm | Permalink

    As long as a student’s not carrying a camera and taking pictures of other students I have no problem with who uses the women’s locker room.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:35 pm | Permalink

      Most women have, however.

      • Michael Waterhouse
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:21 am | Permalink

        Yes, and until it can be shown that most, if not all women don’t have a problem with it, then their feelings need to be addressed,
        first.

  15. Kevin
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:33 pm | Permalink

    I would say that conceding the right of the transgender student transgresses the rights of the other female students.

    Do heterosexuals feel embarrassed if obliged to undress in front of known same-gender homosexuals?

    Do homosexuals feel embarrassed if obliged to undress in front of known same-gender heterosexuals?

    Some transgender people are also homosexual, in the sense that they are attracted to the same gender as their own psychological gender (they may find their physical birth gender repulsive).

    I think that the guiding principle to date has been that we are expected to undress in front of people for whom we are assumed to feel no sexual arousal and that the others present should feel no sexual arousal for us. Traditional male/female norms.

    Then there are other issues of personal privacy and prudishness.

    One solution could be to have cubicles similar to swimming pools, however these are usually separated by male/female gender as well. There are other issues if the cubicled changing areas are mixed gender.

    In my secondary school, the age range was from 11 to 18. I imagine that this issue could be serious and potentially traumatic for the eleven year olds. They would need to have some kind of balanced psychological preparation before the event (or counseling after). I’m not sure how well-informed today’s eleven year olds are concerning gender issues.

    Oh dear!

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

      I would say that conceding the right of the transgender student transgresses the rights of the other female students.

      Yes, it transgresses it. Is that the word you actually meant?

      Do heterosexuals feel embarrassed if obliged to undress in front of known same-gender homosexuals?

      It’s not about sexual orientation, it’s about sex.

      Do homosexuals feel embarrassed if obliged to undress in front of known same-gender heterosexuals?

      Is that even a thing?

      Some transgender people are also homosexual, in the sense that they are attracted to the same gender as their own psychological gender (they may find their physical birth gender repulsive).

      I don’t think suggesting the girl with the penis might be aroused by the sight of the other girls helps your argument.

      • Kevin
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

        Transgress:
        https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=transgress&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b&gfe_rd=cr&dcr=0&ei=Be1jWpH-D6GF1gKJp7tY

        as in “infringe”

        “I don’t think suggesting the girl with the penis might be aroused by the sight of the other girls helps your argument.”

        I wasn’t at all commenting on arousal, more on embarrassment.

        I mentioned arousal in the comment involving traditional norms. Separate argument concerning who we are expected to undress in front of. The criteria by which males and females are or have been segregated in the past.

        Afterwards I was commenting on the general issue in the context of gender and orientation, both of which may potentially cause embarrassment. As I commented previously, in a time when traditional male/female heterosexuality was taken as the norm, people were unaware of these changing room problems insofar as they were unaware of gender/orientation issues.
        That time is not very long ago either (to be honest we are in a transition period in which a variety of such tricky issues are being faced up to).
        I was at that age more than forty years ago and attitudes have changed a lot since. Transgender wasn’t even in the vocabulary. Homosexuality had been illegal until three or four years before and it was not discussed much at school. The previous generation was even more prudish.

  16. C.F. Powell
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:34 pm | Permalink

    Nuance is required here. As others have pointed out, locker rooms are used to segregate the sexes, of which there are two (with of course a very small minority being intersex). If we go by only that then the answer would be no. But the article explicitly says she has gender dysphoria. That’s significant. If she was diagnosed by a medical professional, and not by herself, as seems to be a trend among some youth, with gender dysphoria, then it might actually cause her real distress to use the boys’ locker room. In that case compassion should be required and it would be reasonable for her to use the girls’. The answer then would be yes.

    Arguments about sexual orientation are irrelevant because you wouldn’t and shouldn’t use them when talking about homosexual boys and girls and their use of locker rooms.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

      it would be reasonable for her to use the girls’. The answer then would be yes.

      Though that’s not quite the question, which is whether she should use the girls’ but with a privacy curtain, or use the girls’ “openly”.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 7:22 pm | Permalink

      That’s all fine as far as it goes, but just as she might have real distress at sharing a locker room with people with penises, so might some of the other girls.

      • Craw
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:00 pm | Permalink

        That puts it just perfectly.

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:19 pm | Permalink

      … it might actually cause her real distress to use the boys’ locker room.

      Maday’s use of the girls’ locker room will cause real distress to many other students.

      Does Maday just identify as a girl, or also as the Queen of Sheba?

      • Diane G.
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:49 pm | Permalink

        😀

        In fairness, at this age most kids are absorbed in “finding themselves,” trying to figure out who they are, how to be recognized, etc. Someday she (or perhaps back to he, then) may look back on this stage of her/his life and cringe. (I add my vote to the ‘let her use a screened area’ faction.)

        (Nothing but the smiley directed specifically at you, Matt.)

        • Eric Grobler
          Posted January 22, 2018 at 2:07 am | Permalink

          I do not think you appreciate the seriousness of the situation.
          Children are encourged by the activists and many are given hormonal therapy at a very young age.

  17. FB
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:35 pm | Permalink

    I am an heterosexual male and don’t want to see male genitalia ever.

  18. alexandra Moffat
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:39 pm | Permalink

    I went to a girl’s school (early40s) so a penis in the locker room would have been a big surprise! And we would have been fascinated!
    As for now, no idea. Maybe you can’t eat your cake and have it, too???? As long as you appear male, stay in the male locker room?
    Maybe hormones ought to be the determining factor, not appearance….

  19. Stanislaw Pak
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:42 pm | Permalink

    I voted No.

    Just because someone ‘feels’ to be other gender it does not change the fact that biologically they are still an original sex. Similarly we can decide about sexual preference. Male gays are still dressing in male dressing rooms and somewhat no one is doing fuss about that.

    Unless, we remove the whole division and make the unisex dressing rooms.

  20. Leigh
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

    I came of age in the 60’s. It was common practice to go skinny-dipping or be in various states of undress in mixed groups. No one equated nudity with sex, arousal, or shame. I guess I am one of the few voting yes. Why should we shame a transgender person for having a certain body type? Why is it their responsibility to mitigate our prudishness?

    As to how the students feel, I would expect that girls who are not embarrassed to undress in front of other girls would not be distressed. We do not seem to be concerned about the girls who are embarrassed to be undressing in front of other girls. Don’t they deserve the same choice of using privacy screen? (Maybe they are given that choice; I don’t know anything about this particular school.)

    I’m surprised that there are so many no votes on this site. For me, this is just another example of why women and minority groups despair.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:41 pm | Permalink

      Your experience was in situations where you had a choice. Schoolgirls haven’t such a choice. Forcing the transgender student into their locker room tells them that they do not matter, they are second-rate humans.

      • Ken Phelps
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 5:49 pm | Permalink

        Agree. The feelings and choices of the girls come from the same place as the trans student’s demands – inside their heads. They should command the same respect.

    • Alpha Neil
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:57 pm | Permalink

      Our prudishness? Don’t forget that the transgender student will not change with the boys so it seems she’s asking others to accommodate her prudishness.

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

      Our society currently values segregation by sex for certain facilities, including locker rooms. It is codified in US law.

      Your personal opinion, that we should instead all embrace FKK, is, quite frankly, entirely irrelevant to this case.

  21. grasshopper
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

    Does chemical castration only work upon the gonads? I remember learning that the adrenal glands also secrete testosterone, and that eunuchs could get erections, so that impotence is not necessarily a consequence of castration.

    • Michael Waterhouse
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:27 am | Permalink

      Not enough to be significant.

  22. Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:56 pm | Permalink

    No, and it’s easy. The rooms aren’t about validating someone’s identity: they follow old fashioned norms that charge nudity as something inherently sexual, assume that everyone is heterosexual, ignore gossiping and bullying among same-sexed groups, and based on that offer such spaces.

    I know gender warriors like to subvert such norms, but that’s the wrong way to do it. An effective way that was very successful was building a massive wall around a country, so that the people could not travel freely. This made them see nudity as an expression of freedom and it dissociated it from anything sexual. Maybe the gender warriors could encourage Trump to build that wall, and take it a step further?

    On a more serious note, the trend is to simply provide individual stalls for change and showering. Another way would be at least a way to change into swimming attire to take the shower.

    Overall, there are two sides of the equation: to be nude, and to be seen naked. You can be considerate and be mindful of other people, too.

  23. rom
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 1:59 pm | Permalink

    Single sex change-rooms.

    • rom
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:05 pm | Permalink

      By that I mean … one change room for all genders, real and imagined.

      • Craw
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:44 pm | Permalink

        By that you mean, ignore the feelings and opinions of those affected.

        • rom
          Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

          Do you have a logical reason as why we should not have communal change room showers?

          One that come to mind might be society is screwed up and it would lead to unfortunate incidents.

          I was going to find a youtube clip for the shower scene in Starship Troopers

          • Craw
            Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:04 pm | Permalink

            Do you have a rational reason why we should have *only* communal ones? Because that is your proposal, that even in places where there are no issues of transgender that everyone be forced to use a communal room.

            And yes I have a rational reason: the preferences of the people involved. Which is actually precisely why we outlaw rape.

  24. John Conoboy
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

    Should transgender people be allowed to use the restroom/lockerroom that matches the gender they feel they are. Yes. Should anyone have to see others naked or have to let others see them naked no matter what gender they or the others are. No.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:06 pm | Permalink

      Put more screens in the women’s locker room. Problem solved.

  25. Mark Perew
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:07 pm | Permalink

    I’m on the flip side of this dilemma. One of my grand children was born with female genitalia, but identifies as male. I worry that it will not be safe for him to change in the boys locker room.

  26. Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    The backlash on transgender issues is going to come because ‘gender’ is continually being conflated with sex. The changing rooms issue is relatively minor but they were originally separated according to sex, not gender. Separate toilet facilities were installed in factories and shops because the default male-tailored toilets were inadequate or inappropriate for biological women.

    But there are bigger issues in sport and politics. Sports were segregated because there are huge mean physical advantages to being a man. We don’t separate men and women in sports because we think women rugby players would prefer dressing up or they don’t like harsh language.

    In the U.K. there’s also some pushback on the Left because transwomen are increasingly taking up places in all-women shortlists. Whether you support such short lists or not, their purpose is to promote women into positions where there are too few and to ensure women’s perspectives on issues such as maternity leave and reproductive rights are adequately addressed. Forcing biological women to step aside in favour of transwomen for whom such issues are less important than policing pronouns is turning many feminists against them.

    Had transpolitics stuck to ‘gender’ they’d have been fine but pushing into realms which are clearly demarcated by sex is causing a backlash.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

      Very good points – I agree.

  27. Thanny
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

    This is what that awful bathroom bill was really about.

    And it also shows why the use of the word “gender” outside of linguistics was a mistake.

    Most people think of “gender” and “sex” as identical. The former is just a less ambiguous (i.e. between sex and sexual intercourse) and somewhat prudish version of the latter.

    But that’s not what the illiberal left thinks. They think “gender” is something somehow distinct from sex. When such a person uses the term “transgender”, they are not using a word equivalent to transsexual.

    It is the belief of these people that a man who has undergone no surgery and no hormone treatments, with a full beard and hairy chest, is entitled to declare himself a woman and use all the same facilities that other women use.

    No reasonable person thinks this is acceptable. We have sex-specific facilities for a reason.

    In my view, I couldn’t care less what you claim your “gender” is. If you have male genitals, you use the male facilities. If you have female genitals, you use the female facilities. It makes no difference to me whether you were born with them or simulated them through surgery.

    I’m referring to facilities where nudity is in play, not just public restrooms. Not all transsexuals get surgery on their genitals (it is, after all, quite dangerous), and if they can pass for the sex of their brain, by all means use the appropriate restrooms.

    But it is entirely unreasonable to expect normal females or males to accept someone clearly of the opposite sex in areas designated for the one sex only.

  28. DiscoveredJoys
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:27 pm | Permalink

    If Nova Maday successfully sues the school can some of the females sharing the changing room also sue the school because of *their* own anxiety?

    How does claiming minority status compare with the majority who make reasonable provision? Does one trump (sorry) the other?

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:47 pm | Permalink

      I think that they absolutely should sue. I am outraged at the ease with which the Ctrl-Left pushes females under the buss whenever this seems suitable.

  29. David Duncan
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

    Once s/he’s had the cut and tuck job it’s okay. Before that s/he should consider the feelings of the females who were born that way.

    The ideal solution is to have single bathrooms and changerooms with both/all sexes using it.

  30. Glenn McDonald
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 3:59 pm | Permalink

    Use the curtain is a reasonable comprise

  31. Pablo
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    Autogynephilia is a fetish. That’s why a private changing area isn’t acceptable to him. There’s no erotic thrill to it.

    • Posted January 22, 2018 at 12:43 pm | Permalink

      Without knowing more, not sure whether this is a case of autogynephilia, which typically manifests later in adulthood. (And which is also SJW heresy to even mention.)

      There are definitely some people with trans identities. but this is also an excellent way to gain narcissism-feeding attention if you are so inclined.

  32. Taz
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:06 pm | Permalink

    How about putting in more privacy screens and mandating that everyone must change behind one? Then everyone is treated the same, and I doubt anyone will claim it’s their right to be seen naked or to see others naked.

    As other comments have shown, this would be a relief for many students. “I’m not changing behind a screen because I’m embarrassed – it’s the rules”.

  33. Brian
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    I am 75 and think that everyone who wants privacy should have it. There should be curtains, stalls or walls for everyone if they want them. I also think that much cruelty would emerge if a transgender female were in a men’s locker room. She would often be subject to humiliation and harassment by the immature crowd.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:41 pm | Permalink

      The teen wants part of the full female experience, but to still appear as an intact male? It seems that it is the men transitioning to women who demand that their rights are greater than the women. I have yet to read a similar case where a woman transitioning to a man makes similar demands.

  34. Craw
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:25 pm | Permalink

    In what other case do we accept someone’s description of themselves without question? If a man describes himself as qualified to teach, must I accept that without question? What about some over 6 feet who claims to be a midget? What about someone who claims to be Cherokee but has white ancestors for 10 generations? What if Dr Coyne suddenly claims he is my brother?

    • Liz
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:45 pm | Permalink

      Come again.

      • Craw
        Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

        It is her contention that she is just like every other girl. Why are we forced to accept that self-assessment? In what area do we accept such claims as inviolate and dispositive?

  35. Ken Kukec
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 4:48 pm | Permalink

    If I had a daughter, I’d encourage her to slough off having a transgender student in the locker room as no big deal, and to do whatever she could to make that person feel comfortable. But I think the issue is sufficiently fraught that I hesitate to propose a hard-and-fast rule for others.

    As for me, from my first trip to junior-high gym class through my most recent visit to a schvitz bath, my own heuristic (or, dare I say, rule of thumb-like appendages) — and what I’ve always understood the prevailing ethos in places of communal nudity to be — is don’t stare as the other guy’s junk.

  36. Susan D.
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 5:14 pm | Permalink

    The transgender person (hereinafter referred to as “she”) is not the only person with rights here. The girls have just as much right not to have to see non-female genitalia.
    I can understand why she doesn’t want to use the male change room: she would undergo harassment and/or nasty comments and/or sexual assault, because THAT’S WHAT MEN DO – that’s why we don’t have females in the male rooms and vice versa. So she is safer in the women’s room, but the other women should not have to see her genitalia if it bothers them, so a privacy screen is the best option.
    That is the best compromise that can be made, so if she doesn’t like it, she should use a toilet stall, or just go home to change, or do what my mother did at the beach: she had a voluminous long garment with just a hole to put the head through, which she donned on the beach and changed into or out of her swimming costume with no problems and no-one thought it strange or offensive. She can’t be treated “just like every other girl” because she isn’t one. That can’t be helped. She should have more consideration for her fellow female students rather than wanting everyone else to comply with her point of view.

    • Posted January 20, 2018 at 10:00 pm | Permalink

      “She can’t be treated “just like every other girl” because she isn’t one.’ And some of the students will be nice to her and others won’t. Just like in real life. Not wanting to see a penis in the girls locker room is a whole different story than not “accepting” a trans student.

  37. Sian Evans
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

    As long as she doesn’t have an erection in a women’s locker room I’d be fine with her using the female locker room. It is perfectly possible to provide a controlled experimental situation where the possibility of this occurring could be measured but I doubt that anyone will.

    • Jenny Haniver
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

      I’ll get out my ruler to measure the erection.

  38. aljones909
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

    Is it really beneficial to pander to the feelings of anyone who may (or may not) have a psycho sexual problem.

  39. Rachel
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:24 pm | Permalink

    I don’t know what other people’s high school locker rooms were like but in mine NOBODY got fully naked. Maybe we were more prudish than other high schoolers. Then again, this was New York City, so maybe not. Anyway, if one of my female-identifying classmates had had a penis, I never would’ve known because I never would’ve seen it.

    • yazikus
      Posted January 20, 2018 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

      Same. I never saw anyone’s genitals. And I attended four high-schools across three states and two continents.

  40. eric
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

    if they do object, don’t we have to balance the transgender student’s wishes against those of the women students? After all, baring your woman’s body in front of a body with a penis could cause substantial distress.

    It’s a locker room – there are multiple rows separated by high lockers. Change in another row.

    Is this somewhat callous to both the women who feel uncomfortable and the trans woman? Yes. But the cynic in me says that one student running afoul of their peer’s judgment and being somewhat shunned for it is being “treated just like every other girl.”

    ****

    But now for the deeper issue. If some students didn’t want a black woman, Jewish woman, or one-legged woman in the locker room with them, we’d tell them to get the heck over it. We wouldn’t care about some racist student’s ‘discomfort’ about changing in front of a black woman, right?

    This leads me to believe that the response of us adults likely indicates whether we deep down really accept the trans claim. Because if we did, our response to all the other female students would be “get the heck over it.” The only time another response would be acceptable is if we, the adult, really didn’t believe that the trans woman counted as a woman with civil rights as such.

    I confess, I’m not quite there yet. This makes me psychologically squeamish. But I accept in principle that as long as doctors, psychologists, the state etc. accept that the trans student is a woman, I should too.

  41. yazikus
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 8:00 pm | Permalink

    This is tricky. I’m inclined to think it would be best not to encourage surgery on reproductive bits until a person is an adult. If we start putting in rules that say they can only use the bathroom/dressing room of the sex they identify as if they’ve completed surgical transition- I would worry that younger and younger folks would see that as a necessity. We know those surgeries (though better today than before) can reduce sensitivity, and there is no undoing that.

    In this case,I think modesty curtains for all would be the fine and reasonable thing to do, and someday, maybe we can progress to the place where we don’t need to have those rooms segregated by sex and nudity won’t be shocking/distressing to people.

  42. Posted January 20, 2018 at 8:22 pm | Permalink

    I voted “no opinion”. I’ll let the girls actually using the locker room decide.

    I would prefer the school offer more privacy to everyone though.

  43. Wayne Y Hoskisson
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 9:09 pm | Permalink

    I voted no opinion. After reading all the comments I still have no opinion.

    In junior high school (we had a three year jr high between elementary and high school) the boy’s locker room and gym class was a nightmare for many boys. This seemed like a cruel age. One boy got the nickname ‘donkey dick’ and another was ‘where is it.’ Nova Maday would have been humiliated and terrorized every day in the boy’s locker room. This was in Provo, UT in the late 50s and early 60s, one of the whitest and most conservative places to ever exist in the US. I am pretty sure I had no idea there was a person that was homosexual. Transgender would be unimaginable.

    Discrimination is vile. Hopefully we shall reach an era when discrimination disappears. I will have to see how the court decides and the basis of the decision before I have an opinion. In the mean time I will ask my daughter what she thinks since she will have a better sense of this issue than I do.

    I cannot imagine the horrors and emotions of every day life for Nova Maday.

    • jay
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 10:34 am | Permalink

      “Discrimination is vile. Hopefully we shall reach an era when discrimination disappears. ”

      My how that term has become a universal catchall to shut down conversation. ‘Discrimination’ is something we sometimes NEED to do when we discriminate against behaviors or beliefs that we feel are harmful.

      SPECIFIC forms of discrimination have been determined by our culture to be bad (race, for example) but that does not mean that everything called ‘discrimination’ must be accepted or endorsed just because the the target subject has been ‘officially approved’

      If some pressure group (yes there are rumblings of this currently in the psychology world) got pedophilia to be reclassified as ‘sexual orientation’,… would that make it something we would not discriminate against?

      I personally would continue to discriminate.

  44. ladyatheist
    Posted January 20, 2018 at 11:41 pm | Permalink

    I voted no opinion, because I think all students should get undressed in privacy. They are all worried about their own bodies as it is. Why should they be forced into a situation where they would inevitably compare themselves to others? On the one hand, they could develop an “eh, a body is a body” attitude. On the other, they could develop life-threatening emotional conditions.

  45. Eric Grobler
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 1:58 am | Permalink

    My issue with this is that in the past the number of people who suffered from gender dysphoria were extremenly rare.
    Either we have environmental factors that effects hormonal levels in children or we have some mass psychological and cultural instability in Western Culture.
    What is telling is that children who have these psychological issues are not given professional help, but are treated as perfectly normal.

    It has always been the policy to wait until the individual reaches his/her 20’s (and after a period of professional counselling) before committing to a gender transition.
    Now the meme is out there that multiple genders are normal and that it is just a question of educating the “regessive/uneducated” public, with the result that some narcissistic parents parade their “transgender children” before the cameras to show how progressive they are.
    Terms like gender dysphoria are disbanded and no input from the psychiatric profession is allowed.

    I would not be surprised if in the current climate we would see a movement that would call for the acceptance of schizophrenia and insist that no psychiatric medication should be given.

    People think that were are helping transgender children, while in actual fact we are ignoring the underlying psychological and physical causes that makes a child feel alienated from his/her own body.

    • jay
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 10:20 am | Permalink

      Agreeing with your about this becoming a trending fad.

      Not too long ago, there was a lot of strong criticism of parents who took children to therapists to try to make them ‘straight’. This was claimed to be a form of child abuse.

      But that is nothing compared to the potential to giving children hormone injections, puberty blockers, and drastic disfiguring surgery.

      • Eric Grobler
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 3:42 pm | Permalink

        “But that is nothing compared to the potential to giving children hormone injections, puberty blockers, and drastic disfiguring surgery.”

        Yes and I saw an interview with a psychiatrist who mentioned that a lot of children “grow out of it” thus intervention is madness until the person is in his/her twenties.

    • Vaal
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 12:36 pm | Permalink

      I was just going to make a similar post.

      I absolutely do not know the answers to these things. But in a very recent interview with Jordan Peterson (I’m no rabid fan), when asked:

      What about all the people now who are identifying as transsexual, genderless?

      He responded:

      “We’re in a psychological epidemic. This happens all the time. Freudian hysteria was a psychological epidemic; you very seldom see Freudian hysterics now. Multiple personality disorder is a good example; you don’t see any cases of that anymore.”

      http://nationalpost.com/feature/christie-blatchford-sits-down-with-warrior-for-common-sense-jordan-peterson

      And I have to admit that struck a note in my mind. It is always amazing to watch how, for lack of better word, “memes” spread in societies. When we ask “why does there suddenly seem to be so many young people declaring variations of transgender/gender fluidity?” of course it could be that these numbers were always there, and people simply feel more empowered to “come out” about it.

      On the other hand, trends in society, including psychological trends, are very real and it could be as Peterson suggests, essentially a new meme/psychological epidemic.

      Again, I have no idea what the answer is and I’m happy to accept whatever turns out to be the truth.

      All of this seems possibly mixed into the issue of the leftist movement back to subjectivism, where subjective experience = truth. You can not be “wrong” about how you feel and what you infer about reality from those feelings.

      Which of course ignores much of reason the scientific method arose. Which makes scientific facts (weeded from human bias) almost akin to harassment. (I was just interacting with some people who hew to a very subjective stance in one of my other hobbies, and every time I appealed the scientific method, the results of blind testing etc which of course challenged the subjective “I know what I experience” claims of these folks, the amount of tantrums, insults and invective that came my way was amazing).

      • Eric Grobler
        Posted January 21, 2018 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

        “psychological epidemic”
        That sounds like a good description.

        I also wonder if hormones like estrogen in our water supply have an effect. If fish in rivers are affected why not us.

  46. Diane G.
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 2:19 am | Permalink

    sub

  47. a-non
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 3:22 am | Permalink

    One useful comparison: gender dysphoria is (very roughly) as common as congenital disability requiring a wheelchair.

    We go to some lengths to accommodate the latter, but we do not reconfigure the whole of society. And we try to make these accommodations serve multiple purposes. Grand classical buildings still have steps, they just add a ramp to the back door, which is also good for the elderly with zimmer frames. There are wheelchair tennis leagues, also popular with wounded soldiers, but not at Wimbledon. And the special olympics will place you in a class of those judged to have similar impairments for that event, even if they are of quite different origin.

    And, of course, we often build a third bathroom, whose extra space is also great for changing nappies. Surely this is the appropriate place for people who can’t reach agreement with all their classmates about where to go.

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:48 pm | Permalink

      Except Maday and other trans students don’t want a third, “other” facility. They insist on using one of the two sex-segregated ones.

      • a-non
        Posted January 22, 2018 at 1:33 am | Permalink

        And this is ridiculous. I have no idea under what law they can sue. But at least for disability laws there’s a clear precedent: the school doesn’t have to cancel the high-jump event because of wheelchairs. Nor does the entire graduation parade have to avoid the stairs. They just have to make reasonable accommodations.

  48. jay
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:38 am | Permalink

    “un the newspaper article she says that most students do not have a problem with her”

    I have my doubts about that. Few newspapers would dare print otherwise (the attacks would be intense), and many people, when interviewd, would dare say otherwise..

    For YEARS, schools have reasonably offered private changing areas for such persons (I do NOT consider them girls) but that gets rejected out of hand.

    If someone says they are the reincarnation of Lincoln, we don’t have to believe it… if someone says Jesus talks to them daily,we don’t have to believe it. Why is it demanded that we believe these claims?

    • jay
      Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:39 am | Permalink

      should be ‘not dare say’

  49. shelleywatsonburch
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:57 am | Permalink

    I’m a definite no on this. There is a difference between tolerance and bullying others into giving you things that are unreasonable. If a female identifying as male wanted to change clothes in the men’s locker room with the boys, and she still had breasts and a vagina, no one would think it was okay. The fact that this boy identifying as a girl does not respect the other girls, and thinks it’s okay for force them to be around a stranger’s penis, makes me wonder about mental health issues. Surgical transitions are carefully planned and approved by mental health physicians for good reason. When someone still developing and not far from puberty dabbles in gender change, I think there is a chance that the confusion comes from a place that is different from that of an older person who makes a serious decision after years of self-reflection. Gender fluidity is a bit faddish lately. Easy for a sexually confused, emotionally unstable child to fall into the trendy world of gender things. For now, this kid is physically a boy. Keep the penis out of other students’ faces.

    • Posted January 21, 2018 at 6:33 pm | Permalink

      +1

    • Harrison
      Posted January 23, 2018 at 6:43 am | Permalink

      I think there would be a lot less pushback if it were a transman demanding access to a boys’ space simply because society in general and feminism in particular has far less concern for such spaces. These battles are ALWAYS being waged over access to womens’ restrooms and changing rooms, and no one particularly cares about the obverse.

      • Posted February 4, 2018 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

        I have read someone reporting that boys resorted to changing in the corridor to avoid changing in the same room with a trans boy. You are right, however, that this situation brings less attention. Or there are fewer cases.

    • Posted February 4, 2018 at 1:17 pm | Permalink

      Well said!

  50. chris
    Posted January 21, 2018 at 2:20 pm | Permalink

    I think one reason I don’t really have a problem with it was my experience in college. I lived in a high rise co-ed dorm with alternating male and female floors and communal bathrooms. The bathrooms were labeled men and women but everyone pretty much used whatever was closest to where they happened to be at the time. I remember as a freshman being more than a little startled the first few times I saw guys in the women’s bathroom but after a month or so I got used to it and no one ever complained as far as I know.

  51. Posted January 21, 2018 at 7:34 pm | Permalink

    To reiterate what others have noted: locker rooms are, by law and public consensus, segregated by sex. Maday’s sex is male, and does not transubstantiate into female just because Maday’s gender identification is feminine.

    Maday will feel better about xirself if everyone else treats xir like a girl in every way. But, to indulge Maday in this would impose significant hardship on others. That is not acceptable.

  52. Posted January 22, 2018 at 12:10 pm | Permalink

    IMO, privacy screens for all in both rooms short term.

    In the limit, work to remove body shaming etc. by all.


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