Charlottesville

Well, he said something, and it’s lame. From the New York Times:

In his comments, President Trump condemned the bloody protests, but he did not specifically criticize the white nationalist rally and its neo-Nazi slogans beyond blaming “hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides.”

“It’s been going on for a long time in our country, it’s not Donald Trump, it’s not Barack Obama,” said Mr. Trump, adding that he had been in contact with Virginia officials. After calling for the “swift restoration of law and order,” he offered a call for unity among Americans of “all races, creeds and colors.”

Yeah, right. He wants unity.

206 Comments

  1. Craw
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

    That is a perfectly appropriate response before knowing the full story. We need less shooting from the hip, not least less of it from DJT.

    • scottoest
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:47 pm | Permalink

      At the point he sent that tweet, the entire world was, at minimum, aware that there was a white nationalist rally going on today – after they gathered with torches last night.

      He could have denounced that sentiment by name, but he didn’t, because he knows they make up at least a portion of his base.

      This from the guy who repeatedly hit Obama for not calling Islamic terrorism by name.

      Trump sent several intentionally vague, weak-ass tweets today that non-specifically called for “unity”, while artfully not saying where the hate was coming from.

      • scottoest
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:48 pm | Permalink

        He then ignored questions from reporters when they asked him if he denounced the rally and what it stood for. And he still hasn’t had a peep to utter about the car that plowed into the counter-protesters, and killed at least one person.

        • somer
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:46 pm | Permalink

          I agree – they are his supporters via Bannon. Typical Trump he really doesnt care what they do as long as they support him.

      • Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:50 pm | Permalink

        I agree: who perpetrated violence was unclear, but I would have liked to see some Presidential denunciation of white supremacy and racism–and the real Nazi types who were there.

        • Merilee
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:21 pm | Permalink

          He is incapable of acting or speaking Presidentially.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:37 pm | Permalink

        The white nationalist rally was called for the express purpose of protesting the City of Charlottesville’s decision to remove a statue of Robert E. Lee from the park formerly named in his honor (and recently renamed “Emancipation Park”).

        • Heather Hastie
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:44 pm | Permalink

          That was originally. It changed. See here: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/pro-white-agitators-rallying-this-weekend-in-va-to-unite-the-right/

          In particular, check out who’s speaking at the rally.

          • Merilee
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:51 pm | Permalink

            Lovely group🤢

            • Ken Kukec
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 7:10 pm | Permalink

              Yeah, they seem nice.

        • GM
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:58 pm | Permalink

          As far as I am aware, even though we live in a country in which the North won the war, it is still perfectly legal and they are fully in their rights to gather and protest whatever they want.

          We can be disgusted by their views all we want, but I doubt there would have been violence if they were left alone.

          But this is what happens when people are constantly told for years that some other group of people are the embodiment of all evil.

          • yazikus
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

            ut I doubt there would have been violence if they were left alone.

            Ah, yes. The trusted ‘just leave the nazis alone’ tactic. Has worked so well in the past.

            • Michael Waterhouse
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:33 pm | Permalink

              How many Nazi’s were there really.
              Most right wing or non left people are not Nazis.
              It is the rabid punch a Nazi idiocy where everyone with an alternate opinion becomes punch worthy that has caused this call for unification of the right.

              You want to shriek punch a Nazi and then label everyone a Nazi, expect to be hit back.

              • yazikus
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

                Did you miss the nazi flags? If this is the protest you want to use as the poster-child for Not A Nazi March, well go for it. Perhaps you mistake me for someone else, because I certainly have not ‘shrieked’ ‘punch a nazi’ to or at anyone.

            • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

              Precisely. Silence is consent. We absolutely should not just let these people do their thing without resistance.

              • Harrison
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:14 pm | Permalink

                By “resistance” do you mean peaceful counter-demonstration or showing up to “punch Nazis” Arel-style? Because the latter is what actually occurred. Unsurprisingly for anyone who understands escalation, every side is now showing up to these protests armed to the teeth. It’s only going to get worse from here.

              • Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:30 pm | Permalink

                For the love of the non-existent god, why should “resistance” necessarily entail violence?! Yes!! Of course I mean peaceful types of resistance. Jesus fucking Christ. Your eagerness to interpret “resistance” as “violence” is telling.

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:34 am | Permalink

                I apologise for sniping. I shouldn’t have taken my frustration with these events out on you.

              • Simon
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:37 am | Permalink

                The context in which you made your comment matters. Harrison was certainly not the only one who read it as possibly supporting antifa style disruption and violence.

                Might just as well say that your eagerness to interpret Harrison’s question as insincere is telling.

            • GM
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:24 am | Permalink

              Do I need to repeat the cliche about not learning from history?

              Because you definitely seem to not have learned the correct lessons.

              The fascist wave in Europe in the 1920s and 1930s did not take over because there was nobody to stop it with violent means, it appeared because of certain socioeconomic conditions that existed at the time. BTW, the Nazis is particular actually delivered on a lot of their socioeconomic promises, if you weren’t a Jew, and you did not know what was going to eventually happen to your country, it was a perfectly sensible decision to support them.

              Are the uppity coastal liberal elites that are so horrified by racism and white nationalism paying any attention to the socioeconomic issues plaguing the “white trash” communities of their own country? I don’t see any signs of it.

              Well, you reap what you saw.

              • Saul Sorrell-Till
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 4:44 am | Permalink

                This is what nine months of Trump does. Last November I remember your breathtakingly inane posts about Herr Clinton starting ww3. And I remember your apologetics on behalf of everything Trump said or did. Now we’re at the stage where you’re rationalising the actions of German Nazis in the thirties.
                It’s boringly ironic that you turn out to be the far-right’s version of all those apologists for jihadists, incapable of assigning any kind of ethical responsibility to your particular group of pathetic, virginal male losers. You are any number of crypto-Islamist enablers flipped through a mirror.

              • Historian
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:37 am | Permalink

                Saul, your comment of August 13th, 4:44 A.M. is spot on. Far right apologists need to be taken on at every turn. All efforts must be expended to prevent neo-Nazi ideology of permeating the body politic, particularly the Republican Party. The next few months will be the test as to whether traditional Republicans will take on the Trump White House and the white nationalists who serve in it. If they don’t, the American system of democracy will be sorely tested and may end up the loser

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:37 am | Permalink

                Who *is* advocating policy that would help those struggling financially if not the left? Are you a trickler?

              • John Taylor
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:04 am | Permalink

                “…if you weren’t a Jew…” says it all. Let’s not care about “others” if we stand to benefit. Disgusting comment.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:22 am | Permalink

                @Saul Sorrell-Till

                I am not on the right, where did you get that absurd idea from? I consider Bernie Sanders a moderate who didn’t have enough balls to propose true solutions on half of the problems he talked about.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:23 am | Permalink

                @John Taylor

                I can’t help anyone who lacks the basic reading comprehensions ability or intelligence to understand the difference between descriptive and prescriptive statements.

              • John Taylor
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:31 am | Permalink

                Yes. I’m having a very difficult time understanding your comment. Why would it be perfectly sensible for non-jews but not jews to support nazis. Please explain that for me.

              • Simon
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:38 am | Permalink

                This is what nine months of the hysterical reaction to Trump does. Left wing ideologues cannot stomach the idea of not being in control and are throwing off the pretense of lip service to democratic ideals and reverting to authoritarian type. They have been largely in control of the media narrative and of liberal university campuses for a while now and have a stonking great sense of entitlement to compliance. The only way they know how to respond to pushback is with offensive smearing. The public have been becoming frustrated with this treatment and the media’s crazy-making complicity. Clinton was seen, rightly, as a major proponent of this bullshit and as an over entitled and self-serving representative of the status quo. They had understandable reasons to vote for Trump and are comtemptuous of the idiots calling them racists for doing so. What the far left does not understand is that they can now be legitimately seen by reasonable people as the most threatening cancer needing excision. Left to themselves, the extreme right wing will remain the fringe loons they always have been. Antifa are only serving the extreme right agenda by blurring the moral line.

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:51 am | Permalink

                Why would it be perfectly sensible for non-jews but not jews to support nazis. Please explain that for me.

                Hitler came to power at a time when Germany was an economic basket case and he fixed it. The death camps and the Second World War were all in the future in the early 1930’s. Yes the signs of what was to come were there but it’s a lot easier for us to spot them than for the German people at the time.

              • John Taylor
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:20 am | Permalink

                I think the antisemitism, militarism and expansionist ideas of the Nazis were well known at that point in time. They were a big selling point.

                If the original comment was something to the effect that, despite their antisemitism, support for the Nazis was sensible because of their sound economic policies I find that disgusting and a comment to that effect to be disgusting.

                If the original comment was something to the effect that because of the antisemitism of the population, and the Nazi’s sound economic policies, support for the Nazis was perfectly sensible, I find that disgusting. I also find glib comments to that effect disgusting.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:39 am | Permalink

                If the original comment was something to the effect that, despite their antisemitism, support for the Nazis was sensible because of their sound economic policies I find that disgusting and a comment to that effect to be disgusting.

                I find cockroaches disgusting, that does not mean they do not exist, and it does not mean that they do not play a very important ecological role.

                What offends your sensibilities is irrelevant to what is happening out there in the real world.

                Once you successfully separate human beings into an in-group and an out-group, concern for members of the out-group goes out the window, they can be and are treated as non-humans. Fact of life.

                And it has been much more so historically than it is now after many decades of chest puffing about how liberal and enlightened we in the West are.

                Even though we are actually doing exactly the same thing that the Germans who weren’t too concerned about the fate of the Jews are.

                I guess you are living either in the US or the UK.

                This has certain consequences regarding this issue.

                As a small example, if you are so disgusted by my statement and you own a cell phone, computer or anything of the sort, you are a massive disgusting hypocrite because 5-10 million people died in the Congo over the last 20 years in large part so that you can have it.

                On a grander scale, the US consumes 25% of the world’s resources while having 4% of the population. I don’t see you being much concerned about the fate of the people at whose expense this is happening. Because first, they are invisible to you, part of the outgroup, and second, that state of affairs is very good for you, so why do anything to change it. And the death toll of that system vastly exceeds the paltry 6 million Jews that the Nazis killed…

              • John Taylor
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:54 am | Permalink

                Sorry I thought you were saying that the support for the Nazi’s was sensible given the context of the times but wasn’t sure what point you were actually making.

                Now you seem to be saying that the way history played out was in fact disgusting. I was confused by your original post and I’m still not 100% sure I understand.

                Are you just pointing out that history happened? I agree with that point.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:41 am | Permalink

                I was saying that support for the Nazis was sensible because it was perceived to be in the best interest of the non-Jews at the time. That is was bad for the Jews was irrelevant because the people it was good for were not Jews.

              • John Taylor
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:35 am | Permalink

                OK. I think I get it.

                What you find sensible I find disgusting.

                Maybe you are using the word sensible differently than I use it. Maybe you mean disgusting but understandable given human nature and the environment at the time?

                Maybe read Steven Pinker’s book on this. Expanding circles and stuff. The world doesn’t have to be that way.

                Did you see the post the other day about someone who went out of their way to help potential victims of the holocaust? I think that was courageous behaviour. Links in the comments from that post to lots of other courageous acts.

                Not everyone at the time was looking out for their own “sensible” self interest.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:44 am | Permalink

                Once again, please note the difference between descriptive and prescriptive statements.

            • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:15 am | Permalink

              Ah, yes. The trusted ‘just leave the nazis alone’ tactic. Has worked so well in the past.

              Given how incredibly small and pathetic the white supremacist movement is in America, yes, ignore them. And let them speak out. The more they talk, the more idiotic they appear.

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:56 am | Permalink

                Given that the alt-right has a vibrant fifth column in the West Wing — Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Sebastian Gorka, several Mike Flynn holdovers on the NSC — maybe it would be very dangerous to ignore them.

          • somer
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:53 pm | Permalink

            They are not peaceful – their leader had a bodyguard of a white motorcycle gang according to rightwingwatch link provided by Heather. Moreover they deliberately killed a counter protestor when they drove a car through a number of such protestors
            http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40914643

        • infiniteimprobabilit
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

          If that was the only issue I’d sympathise. I’d feel the same way if it was a statue of Caligula – I’m against revisionism. Leave the damn statues alone, they reflect history. Paris would be bare if every statue that offended [somebody with the opposite point of view] had been removed.

          Of course, if someone wanted to put up a statue of Martin Luther King alongside, that’d perfectly okay too as far as I’m concerned.

          cr

          • Posted August 13, 2017 at 6:16 am | Permalink

            +1

          • Historian
            Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:46 am | Permalink

            Undoubtedly, you are sorely disappointed that after World War II the Germans removed statues, street names, etc. of the leaders of the Third Reich. After all, they “reflect history.” What do you think of the idea to start a movement to restore all the statues of King George III that were removed during the American Revolution? Why should anybody complain as long as there are statues of George Washington right next to them?

            • infiniteimprobabilit
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:54 am | Permalink

              Hey, Historian, I would’ve thought you’d be against rewriting history.

              For the record, I think the South and its Good Ol’ Boys sucks. But I think it’s possible to have that opinion without requiring that old statues be removed.

              I can’t see the point of restoring all of George III’s statues, but if someone wanted to re-erect one as a historical curiosity I’d see nothing wrong with it.

              (I don’t think I’d want to compare either George III or Robert E Lee with Hitler, by the way.)

              cr

              • Historian
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:17 am | Permalink

                Statues and other such objects exist for the purpose of commemorating an event or person. When a society determines that the event or person is no longer worthy of being honored, it is perfectly logical and correct to withdraw such honors.

                It appears that you haven’t the foggiest notion of what historians do. It is their job to revise history, that is, to bring new perspectives on historical events in light of new information and understanding of what took place in the past. This is why, for example, there continues to be a flood of new books and articles on the Civil War. Conceptually, historians work like scientists. Hypotheses are tentative and subject to revision as new data becomes available. Under your view of things a history of Nazism, written by one of Hitler’s minions in 1945, is of equal value as one written by professional historian 70 years later. Of course, the professional historian’s work would be subject to criticism and revision. Revisionism is the sole of the historical profession and a method that hopefully brings us closer to the truth.

              • Historian
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:06 am | Permalink

                Regarding my comment on historical revisionism, I should have said “soul” not “sole.”

              • Robert Bray
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:55 am | Permalink

                I would like to second Historian’s response to you, Infinite. . . . But with a slight demurral. Regarding the statue of Lee in question, it is important to remember that he turned down Lincoln’s offer of command of Union troops because he was a loyal Virginian. And when Virginia seceded, it was to him as if an entire country had seceded. This was to Lee a quite reasonable, if reluctant and sad, decision. As that good ol’ boy from Tennessee, Shelby Foote, liked to say about the consequences of the Civil War–before the war it was ‘The United States are. . .;’ after, ‘The U. S. is. . . .’ This was the radical revision of federalism that historians had to come to understand. Lee, I think, is perhaps too good a reminder of this transformation to let his horse-mounted figure disappear from public view.

                On the other hand, if a congregation of plains Native American tribes could somehow restore Mt. Rushmore to its undefaced state, they’d have every right to do so. A revision devoutly to be wished. As for Crazy Horse. . . well, I don’t know. And so it goes.

            • bric
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:00 am | Permalink

              I was in Barcelona the year after Franco died; the Catalans were in no doubt at all that they didn’t want their streets named after fascist generals any more

              • Robert Bray
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:00 am | Permalink

                Yet consider the huge cavern dug into the hillside north of Madrid. Ostensibly a Catholic church, it is in fact a shrine to Franco, who is buried there. Every day, I’m told (and once I saw for myself), fresh flowers are laid on the floor above his tomb, and, I believe, memorial masses are still regularly said for his soul.

              • infiniteimprobabilit
                Posted August 14, 2017 at 6:08 am | Permalink

                @Robert Bray
                Very likely. There are two sides in most conflicts, so probably about half the Spanish thought Franco was on the right side at the time.

                So, hardly surprising that there is still an adequate number wanting to commemmorate him.

                cr

              • bric
                Posted August 14, 2017 at 8:46 am | Permalink

                I was speaking of the Catalans

            • Simon
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:06 am | Permalink

              False equivalence. There was an immediate need for the Germans to remove the stain of Nazism. There is no such immediacy in the case of General Lee, who can hardly be compared to Adolf Hitler. In fact there are things to admire about Lee, none of which have anything to do with slavery. One can understand landmarks representing the recently deposed being destroyed, but time allows a different perspective. Lee is a legitimately admired figure of US history.

              • Historian
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:32 am | Permalink

                To say that Lee should be admired for things other than being a slaveholder and defender of the institution is about the same as describing a person as being perfectly health except that he has a fatal cancer. And just what do you admire about Lee? Perhaps you admire him for being a great general. He probably was a great general, although some historians dissent from this evaluation. But, so what? Many great military figures served evil causes. Perhaps you admire him because he committed treason. Lee chose his state over his country as did millions of other secessionists. Do you think we should honor all of them? No, Lee was a conventional southern slaveholder and traitor with exceptional military abilities. He does not deserve to be honored through such objects as statues. The passage of time is no reason to honor those who served an evil cause. Lee certainly did not consider his cause evil, but neither did the Nazis. On the scale of evil, slavery may not have been as bad as genocide, but it was not far off.

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:17 am | Permalink

                No, the apt analogy for R.E. Lee isn’t Hitler; it’s Wehrmacht field marshal Erwin Rommel — both were brilliant military tacticians, with many admirable personal qualities, who fought nobly on behalf of a evil, repugnant cause.

                How do you think the good people of Skokie would take to having a Rommel statue in their city park?

              • Historian
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 12:07 pm | Permalink

                For Ken Kucec: I have one quibble with your Lee and Rommel analogy. Lee fervently believed in the cause he was fighting for. Rommel did not, which is why he was associated with the 1944 conspirators and committed suicide. Which one was more morally repugnant? It’s hard to tell.

      • Heather Hastie
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:43 pm | Permalink

        well said.

      • Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

        Well said.

      • yazikus
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

        As has been said by many, Trump promptly and roundly condemns all sorts of people and things. People drinking soda, women he thinks are ugly, presidents who golf, etc. His steadfast ambiguity is more than telling.

        • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

          Indeed. Hemming and hawing here says a lot coming from the man many of his supporters say “says it like it is”.

    • abear
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

      I see Van Jones on CNN blaming all 3 fatalities in Charlottesville on Nazis. Apparently 2 of those fatalities are from a helicopter accident. Also, a little early to pinpoint the political leanings of the driver of the car or his motives.

      • Craw
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 7:25 pm | Permalink

        We should have learned by now not to jump based on initial reports. Trump’s job right NOW, not in a few days but right now, is to
        1 condemn violence and hatred
        2 not complicate the job of those on the ground or prejudice any proceedings
        3 not to inflame passions

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:21 pm | Permalink

          So do you think it’s been counterproductive for Orin Hatch and Marco Rubio and Mike Huckabee and other rock-ribbed conservatives to respond immediately to this incident with unequivocal denunciations of white nationalism?

          If not, why wouldn’t it have been far, far better for the president of the United States to have done the same?

        • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:02 pm | Permalink

          Inflamnatory? We shouldn’t condemn white supremacism because to do so might be inflammatory?

          That’s mid-1900s level apologetics.

      • Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:30 pm | Permalink

        A reporter from The Hill has been tweeting that the driver may have flipped out in fear because the antifa thugs were bashing his car with baseball bats.

        • allison
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

          I guess you haven’t watched the video. There was nobody around him when he accelerated and slammed into two stationary cars.

          • Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

            I watched the video. But there’s no video of what happened before the video.

        • Andy
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:41 pm | Permalink

          And anyone who’s not a Nazi sympathizer would be able to tell that’s a lie. Why exactly did you post that Matt?

          • Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

            Because that’s what’s being reported by Taylor Lorenz of The Hill based in their conversations with the police:

            http://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2017/08/12/driver-who-rammed-crowd-in-charlottesville-reportedly-detained-one-killed/

            Yes, I know The Hill is even more right wing than Breitbart, but still.

            • Ken Kukec
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 12:14 am | Permalink

              Is there a reason why you ignore that, 12 minutes later, Lorenz tweeted that she was at the police station interviewing officers and witnesses and that “[e]very witness here claims the act was deliberate”?

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:25 am | Permalink

                That was 12 minutes after I posted this comment. Lorenz also noted that the cops she first talked to had not been at the scene.

                Lorenz also reported getting punched in the face for filming.

                Why does everyone instantly assume I have an agenda for simply observing?

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:06 am | Permalink

                The tweet referred to was posted by Lorenz at 3:05 pm Eastern time; your comment, at 8:30 pm Central time. So unless you’re trapped in a time warp, your accounting is not accurate. Anyway, why wouldn’t you have amended your comment after discovering it was inaccurate?

                If you didn’t engage in rank speculation contradicted by established fact, people would be less likely to assume you have an agenda.

            • Andy
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 6:02 am | Permalink

              I read through every tweet on that link and there’s nothing about baseball bats. Matt, I think you’re being dishonest.

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:28 am | Permalink

                If I knew how to insert images here, I’d show the tweet. it’s from the reporter.

                Why on Earth would I make something up about this story?

              • Andy
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:48 pm | Permalink

                I searched for “bats” (your claim) at your link and get “phase not found”.
                As for your question, I honestly don’t know why you would “make something up”, but as Ken seems to have caught you in either a time-warp or yet another lie, it looks to me like the evidence is pointing in a particular direction.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:57 pm | Permalink

          Yeah, and if the Queen had a pair of testicles under her robe, she’d be the King.

          What evidence is there for this claim? The only item at The Hill I’ve seen discussing this says merely that “[c]iting a supposed attack from left-wing protesters or a possible police arrival, the remaining white power supporters hurried to their cars.”

    • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:08 pm | Permalink

      “That is a perfectly appropriate response before knowing the full story. We need less shooting from the hip, not least less of it from DJT.”

      We know plenty. We know that white supremacists are marching in Charlottesville. And rather than condemning them he implied that those who oppose racism are just as bad.

    • Mike Paps
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:10 pm | Permalink

      “That is a perfectly appropriate response before knowing the full story. We need less shooting from the hip, not least less of it from DJT.”

      We know plenty. We know that white supremacists are marching in Charlottesville. And rather than condemning them he implied that those who oppose racism are just as bad.

      • Michael Waterhouse
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:39 pm | Permalink

        As far as violence goes, are they not just as bad.
        Macing people, throwing fireworks at people, bashing people with bicycle locks, smashing windows and other property damage.

        I am not defending that car attack but a huge proportion of other violence has been from antifa and the like.

        Unless there are massive mitigating circumstances for that car attack, the driver should get life in prison.

        • Mike Paps
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:56 pm | Permalink

          “As far as violence goes, are they not just as bad.”

          I’m not talking about violence at all, but ideology. Trump implied in his statement that people who hate, or are bigotted towards Nazi’s, and white supremicists are just as bad as Nazi’s, and white supremacists. If he had condemned racism, and white supremacism, and then gone on to call for everyone protest peacefully what he said wouldn’t have been an issue.

          • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:34 am | Permalink

            Antifa are communists and anarchists. Granted, though incredibly stupid, those ideologies are not ‘as bad’ as neo-nazism.

            Yet Anfita are also fascists who seek to stifle free speech through physical intimidation & violence. That’s bad enough to despise them.

            I’m not taking sides in this nasty little fight, cuz nobody involved is on my side.

            • Mike Paps
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:53 am | Permalink

              “I’m not taking sides in this nasty little fight, cuz nobody involved is on my side.”

              Wow! While I condemn the use of violence, the side that opposes Nazi’s, and white supremacists are absolutely on my side, and if I were a resident of Charlottesville I probably would have joined them in their mostly peaceful protests.

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 3:48 pm | Permalink

                The peaceful protests were the proper response, ones I’d gladly join. I speak of antifa.

            • Zach
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

              Antifa are communists and anarchists. Granted, though incredibly stupid, those ideologies are not ‘as bad’ as neo-nazism.

              No, they’re worse (communism is, at least).

    • Chris B
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:19 am | Permalink

      Yeah, why shoot from the hip and say something that might displease DJT’s base?
      Remarkable, and sudden, restraint…

    • Saul Sorrell-Till
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:18 am | Permalink

      Silent neutrality on far-right violence but unending fulminations on left-wing students acting like idiots – we can always rely on you to have your priorities in order Craw.

      It wouldn’t have taken much for Trump to have condemned someone who drove a car into a crowd would it? Regardless of who turns out to have been the driver; and regardless of his political beliefs; any responsible, morally whole human being would be able to squeeze out a condemnation of a fatal terrorist attack.
      The reason this truly disgusting man can’t do so is because he doesn’t want to hurt the feelings of fascists.

      The time is coming when people will have to pick sides. I choose the counter-protesters, regardless of their ideological flaws. I choose the side that stands up to the recrudescence of far-right fascism.

      Avoiding the question, and implying that ‘they’re both as bad as each other'(and where have we heard that before?) won’t fly anymore.

      • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:37 am | Permalink

        No, we should not ‘pick sides in this fight’.

        I will defend the MAGAs and even the aryans in their right to exercise their right to free speech, while continuing to vehemently reject what they espouse. I will not support anyone who seeks to stifle free speech.

      • Simon
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:49 am | Permalink

        Pick a side then. Whose side will you be on when fascist antifa thugs are violently protesting people peacefully demonstrating for their right to publicly express non-racist, non-authoritarian views which go against the regressive narrative?

        The left have initiated far more violence since the election than the right, yet they are just idiots while the right are violent. Why? Do you not understand that the ideological idiocy of those students is what enables them to paint a target on ANYONE who opposes them and to justify violence against them. Anyone who fails to froth at the mouth about Trump is othered and an enemy of the people. Now where in history have we seen this kind of thing before?

        Those who fail to acknowledge their own capacity for evil and seek to demonise the other in a fog of self-righteousness are dangerous.

        • Saul Sorrell-Till
          Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:08 am | Permalink

          I’ve told you which side I’ll be on. When Nazis are walking down the streets of a liberal democracy I’ll be against them. I will pick the side that protests them. And I won’t trip up over my own feet in my desire to diminish their responsibility and rationalise their actions.

          The student left have been in ideological control of a certain section of the academic world for decades now. What have been the consequences in terms of people dead, innocent protesters murdered? Remember, this is a period of thirty or forty years we’re talking about.
          For all their flaws, which are many and various and which plenty of people here have criticised consistently over the years, if it came to a choice between them and actual Nazis there’s only one side I’d pick.

          And don’t expect me to take seriously your cracked vision of the world, where obnoxious students at some liberal college are the equivalent of white supremacists and fascists who want to literally wipe out minorities, and who take succour from the tacit support of the American president and certain members of his cabinet.

  2. Jenny Haniver
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:52 pm | Permalink

    As they say, a picture’s worth a thousand words. To see the Confederate battle flag and the Nazi flag blowing (or rather, hanging limply) in the wind together says it all.

    • scottoest
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 5:57 pm | Permalink

      I never thought I’d live to see a President who couldn’t issue even a boilerplate condemnation of racists and Nazis.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

        Or live to see a president who would thank Vladimir Putin for expelling American diplomats.

        My god, what have we done?

        • JohnnieCanuck
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 7:11 pm | Permalink

          I dread finding out the consequences of electing this pathological liar and narcissist.

          • somer
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:58 pm | Permalink

            Nay Mr Prez is a Psychopath.

            • sensorrhea
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:28 am | Permalink

              To be specific he’s a pathological narcissist, which always includes major delusional and sociopathic features.

        • Andy
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:47 pm | Permalink

          Well, it was obvious for some time. But perhaps we should all just get back to talking about Hillary’s emails. 😦

          • Michael Waterhouse
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:40 pm | Permalink

            Yeah, and how she was going to start WW3.

          • Merilee
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:06 pm | Permalink

            Did you see the meme about how Trump should build the wall out of Hillary’s emails because no one can get the eff over them?

            • nicky
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:30 am | Permalink

              hehehe 🙂

            • Andy
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:15 am | Permalink

              That’s funny! 🙂

            • Diane G.
              Posted August 14, 2017 at 3:42 am | Permalink

              😀

      • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:05 pm | Permalink

        In fucking deed.

  3. Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:02 pm | Permalink

    After Zeitgeist, Schadenfreude and Doppelgänger, how about adopting Fackelzug, literally “torch-march”. The term is not Third Reich per se, but it is hard to ignore this connotation especially im Englischen, I assume #CharlottesvilleFackelzug

    • Ken Kukec
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:22 pm | Permalink

      If we’re looking for an apt Third Reich analogy here it would be the Sturmabteilung.

      • Posted August 13, 2017 at 6:04 am | Permalink

        And maybe Marx’s Lumpenproletariat might be due for a reboot too.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:11 am | Permalink

          Hey, some of my best friends (and most regular clients!) are lumpenproles. 🙂

          • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:03 am | Permalink

            Holy heck, I am too at the moment come to think of it!

    • Posted August 13, 2017 at 6:01 am | Permalink

      Agreed…. though the Nazis used real Fackeln, not tiki torches from Home Depot or the neighbor’s garden.

  4. Ken Kukec
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:07 pm | Permalink

    Donald Trump once again refuses to call out white-nationalist racism and anti-Semitism. Time and again he has had to be dragged kicking and screaming just to disavow their support. (“You want me to renounce? There, I renounce. You happy now?”)

    This, from the guy who constantly complained that Barack Obama wouldn’t expressly name “Islamic terrorism.” I’m all for calling a spade a spade, whether it’s Islamism or white-nationalism. But at least Obama had a good-faith (if mistaken) basis for not naming Islam: a desire to make common cause with moderate Muslims in the fight against terrorism. Donald Trump’s only reason for refusing to denounce white-nationalism is to avoid alienating a substantial portion of his base.

    • Mark R.
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:25 pm | Permalink

      And another reason he doesn’t denounce them is because he’s a bigot just like them. He’s perfectly fine with their ideology. Sick and sad to be sure, but there is no real evidence to the contrary.

      • GM
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:12 pm | Permalink

        I highly doubt Trump shares their ideology. Trump is born and raised in the very heart of New York, and in the same wealthy ultraliberal circles his most fierce critics belong to. It’s one reason they hate him so much — it’s not merely the fact that he openly spits at their behavioral norms but that he does so coming from within their circles. If he was from the South, I bet the media war on him would be nowhere near as fierce,

        Anyway, your is precisely the kind of thinking that will lead to more violence.

        It doesn’t get talked about much, because hey, this is the most perfect country on Earth, it’s not possible that it could have any flaws, but the US actually has a very long history of serious internal violence (that is, aside from the Civil War, and aside from the Native American genocide). The last half a century has been something of an anomaly in fact in terms of how peaceful it has been.

        You want a return to that? Continuing to dehumanize other people is a very good strategy to achieve that.

        • Ken Kukec
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:52 pm | Permalink

          Weren’t you the one who warned us on the eve of the last election that Hillary would lead us into WW3, that the world would be a much safer place under a President Trump? (Meanwhile, the Donald has us locked & loaded, a single threat by Kim Jong-un away from raining down fire & fury on the DPRK, the likes of which the world has never seen before.)

          Excuses us, if we don’t find you a particularly prescient voice on the Mind of Donald Trump.

          • GM
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:07 pm | Permalink

            Yes, I was.

            And I am quite disappointed to see Trump so gutlessly surrender to the military industrial complex.

            But at the time all we had was the candidates’ words.

            And one was promising normalization of relationships with Russia while the other was promising to start a war.

            Domestic policy and the well being of US citizens has precisely zero importance in comparison with that (as an extreme hyperbolic example, having the whole population of the US, or any other country, put in GULAG camps by a Nazi-like dictator who, however, never launches WW3 is a much better choice than picking a liberal president, who claims to care about LGBT rights, but does launch it), so the only sane choice was to vote against the candidate who promised war.

            Also, we may well have already had that war well on track if Hillary was president now.

            We’ll see what the future brings.

            • infiniteimprobabilit
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

              I’m all in favour of normalising relationships with Russia (whatever that means, I’m not aware that – some rhetoric aside – they’re particularly abnormal at present? – Russia and China both voted to impose sanctions on NK, after all) – but where did Hilary promise to start a war?

              cr

              • somer
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:32 pm | Permalink

                Hillary would start WW3 in GM’s fantasy. Trump has left 2,000 defence/foreign policy positions unfilled. Trump has removed all layers of support and advice in the defence and especially foreign policy administration below the top figures and pitted them against each other so effectively he is unchecked and has no security staff with a sound base of support. Trump never pays attention to detail – only to manipulation for his image. His big language to please the base and his wild posturing whenever his position is threatened is very dangerous. He flip flops everywhere because he can’t be bothered with the details of consistent and meaningful policy. It could push him to start a war to save his image and he doesnt care about the human cost – only himself. He is WAY more dangerous.

              • GM
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:34 pm | Permalink

                See, this is why democracy does not work — because the vast majority of the population is completely unqualified to vote, lacking the time to get familiar with the issues, or to even, as in your case, listen to what the candidates are saying…

                She clearly said it on multiple occasions.

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

                And what, GM, do you propose to substitute in democracy’s stead — an anarcho-capitalist form of neo-monarchism perhaps?

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:27 am | Permalink

                I don’t have to have a working solution (and really, how could anyone without running the relevant experiments?) in order to point out that another solution is not working.

            • somer
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

              Globalisation may be kicking the working class in the US and there needs to be readjustment of it but Trump IS the worst of the military industrial complex. He is a thoroughgoing corporatist. Big firms know they don’t have to change their hiring practises one iota – he will always favour big business and the Trans pacific agreement doesn’t affect them much – anyway it included regulations on conditions they’d be happy to do without. He is utterly money hungry and corrupt (he has long expressed admiration of dictators and he has extensive business dealings with Russians, Saudis etc) but like Ali Rizvi analysed last year – he has a profound grasp of what working class and other disaffected white american gripes are and is brilliant at pandering to them. Sadly they will cotton on about what he is way to late – or maybe never.

            • pck
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:38 am | Permalink

              “But at the time all we had was the candidates’ words.”

              Are you for real? We had months and months of literally everyone who wasn’t a right wing lunatic or just completely clueless pointing out that Trump was full of shit and hate, and you had your own damn brain too, so how the hell can you ask “How could I have known”? Literally nobody with half a brain is at all surprised, and nobody gets to say they couldn’t have known. This is your fault, you voted for him knowing exactly what you’d get, you are responsible.

              • Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:57 am | Permalink

                +1

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 8:30 am | Permalink

                pointing out that Trump was full of shit and hate

                Why are you forcing me to call you various names that do not flatter your intelligence? I am having very hard time restraining myself.

                Where did I say anything about Trump being full of hate or not?

                I clearly stated that that was irrelevant in the calculation I was making.

                What is more important? WW3 or gay rights?

                I am voting with both hands for full on gay genocide if the alternative to not having that is WW3. Any rational person would do that. In fact any rational gay person would make the same choice too.

                That does not mean discriminating against gays is OK, it just means that I have the brains and calmness of thought to get my priorities straight, which most people, unable to escape the trappings of their emotions, cannot.

                For the record, there was never any actual evidence that Trump himself is a bigot. A macho blowhard? Sure. But a flaming KKK racist, rabid homophobe, etc? Please…

              • Ken Kukec
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:47 am | Permalink

                Positing the WW3 strawman permits you to pass off any alternative, however dire, as inconsequential. If I posit the alternative to be Betelgeuse going supernova, then WW3 pales in comparison.

                What you’ve utterly failed ever to do on this site is to give a sound explanation for why giving the nuclear codes to a person (Trump) who is — experientially, educationally, and temperamentally — completely ill-suited to the task makes WW3 less likely than it otherwise would’ve been had Hillary been elected.

    • Harrison
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:35 pm | Permalink

      Maybe these were “moderate” white nationalists.

      If that idea sounds absurd to you, it should sound no less absurd than the idea of a “moderate” adherent of a regressive, supremacist faith. People can only be moderate members of such groups to the extent that they ignore the fundamental ideological assumptions of them.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:13 pm | Permalink

        Well, that’s true for all three major monotheisms. Biblical literalists — both Christian fundamentalists and ultra-Orthodox Jews — ascribe to many bizarre and regressive beliefs, too. Difference is, those religions have been tamed (largely, though not entirely) since the Enlightenment. Many of us wish to encourage moderate Muslims as a means of fostering a similar pacification of Islam.

        • Michael Waterhouse
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:44 pm | Permalink

          Moderates support the radicals.
          No massive normalized base, no radical pointy tip.

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:43 pm | Permalink

            So the crazy Christian Reconstructionists constitute the radical pointy tip of the massive, normalized base of mainline Protestants (of all those Episcopalians and Presbyterians and Methodists and Lutherans holding bake sales and running breakfast programs)?

            Aside from imagining there’s no religion (or eradicating the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims) do you have a suggestion more productive for de-radicalizing Islam than making common cause with moderate Muslims?

      • infiniteimprobabilit
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:14 pm | Permalink

        Or what you say are the fundamental assumptions.

        Vast numbers of Muslims and Christians (and probably Jews too) do exactly that.

        cr

        • infiniteimprobabilit
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:15 pm | Permalink

          I see Ken beat me to it while I was typing 🙂

          cr

          • Ken Kukec
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

            The synapses may have lost a step, but the fingers are still nimble. 🙂

      • bric
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:04 am | Permalink

        “I hope that the people sharing the photo are willing to listen that I’m not the angry racist they see in that photo . . . As a white nationalist, I care for all people.”

        http://www.ktvn.com/story/36123640/unr-student-marches-in-charlottesville-white-nationalist-rally

    • Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:07 pm | Permalink

      Yup.

  5. Hempenstein
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 6:13 pm | Permalink

    An eyewitness report from one of PCC[E]’s old classmates may be forthcoming.

  6. Randall Schenck
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 7:31 pm | Permalink

    Trump is a pig and a racist. His gutless and pathetic 1 minute speech today simply shows him for what he is. You would think Putin led the demonstration in Charlotte. He can no more condemn the Nazi, white supremacist than he can say anything negative about Putin, who owns him.

    Those people showed up with guns and shields and all kinds of weapons. It never should have been allowed to take place. The governor blew it and the mayor blew it. A helicopter went down just miles from the event and 2 officers were killed. They are investigating but who knows…could have been shot down. Why they had a helicopter in there — pretty stupid.

    Richard Painter, a highly respected legal person was on MSNBC while the riot was happening and said in so many words – Bannon and the other Alt-right people in Trumps circles must be removed immediately and then, every member in congress who fits this group must be removed from congress. Trump is a flat out racist and there is much evidence to shows this. Some of those rioters today were saying this was done for Trump.

    • Randall Schenck
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:20 pm | Permalink

      Apologies to all the Sus domesticus out there. I did not mean to enter them into this discussion.

    • Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:41 am | Permalink

      … every member in congress who fits this group must be removed from congress….

      “Removed” as in voted out of office? Or are we talking something else?

  7. GBJames
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

    I despair for my country. Racism and religion.

  8. Historian
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:01 pm | Permalink

    What we have witnessed in Charlottesville is reminiscent of the Nazi torch light parades in the 1920s and 1930s. These modern day emulators probably know very little about Hitler except that he supposedly stood up for white people. They probably represent the same demographic: young, underemployed or unemployed, looking for a scapegoat. Probably many of them would consider a job as a guard at a death camp to be a splendid career enhancement opportunity. Believing they have a friend in the White House, including several advisers, the neo-fascists are emboldened. We will likely see more confrontations like this as they become more dangerous. Make no mistake about it, the neo-fascists represent the true threat to enlightenment values, just as their forebears did. Perhaps with this incident they have gone too far, but they won’t think so. Chaos and unrest will increase their ranks as new recruits look upon the alt-right as a community that “understands” them and provides them an outlet for their grievances. Viewing Trump as an ally (rightly or wrongly), the alt-right’s potential is great to further divide this fractured society.

    • Historian
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:05 pm | Permalink

      Should we attribute any meaning to the news that the world’s oldest man at 113, a Holocaust survivor, just died?

      http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-worlds-oldest-man-dies-20170812-story.html

      • Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:33 pm | Permalink

        What do you mean by ‘meaning’? Are you suggesting a causal link between the protests and the death of a 113 year old man on another continent the day before?

        • Historian
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:42 pm | Permalink

          No. Perhaps some symbolism.

    • Kevin
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:23 pm | Permalink

      These people are the breeding ground for future Timothy McVeigh’s but they don’t have the interest of enough of their demographic to sustain a societal fracture. Ironically, if these people could look into the mirror of despair , unemployment, and lack of education or vocational opportunities they would find their ranks a majority of people, black and brown, whom they claim to hate.

      • Simon
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:27 am | Permalink

        This True, which is why so many voted for Trump. This story is unfolding exactly as so many have of late. A demographic feels marginalised and rightly feels that authority is contemptuous of them. They are held up as privileged and the cause of every minor discomfort felt by the truly privileged and pampered. They push back and are predictably equated with the worst of the worst with the complicity of the media. They peacefully protest and are met with violence and police inaction. Now that genuine racists have got involved there is doubling down of the smears. The rational thing to do is to step back, listen more and discern who is actually an extremist of whatever stripe. Public order needs to be restored with absolute impartiality. The lack of listening is the root of the problem here. People are wont to examine others for anything they can use to confirm their biases about them rather than in an attempt to understand them.

    • GM
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:17 pm | Permalink

      Probably many of them would consider a job as a guard at a death camp to be a splendid career enhancement opportunity.

      By the same logic, the reason Gender Studies graduates fill the ranks of the most rabid SJWs is that all the administrative layers that will have to be added to police the population for various minor infractions against SJW ideology will be filled by those same Gender Studies graduates. BTW, that perspective has the advantage of being actually supported by the facts on the ground, because that is what is happening. I haven’t seen any death camps open yet.

      • yazikus
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:19 pm | Permalink

        Gender Studies graduates fill the ranks of the most rabid SJWs is that all the administrative layers that will have to be added to police the population for various minor infractions against SJW ideology will be filled by those same Gender Studies graduates. BTW, that perspective has the advantage of being actually supported by the facts on the ground, because that is what is happening

        When and where is this happening, exactly? And how does one get a cushy Anti-SJW-Infraction Police gig?

        • Michael Waterhouse
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:49 pm | Permalink

          You get the gig at diversity offices and the like at colleges and the like.
          And the Canadian diversity tribunals and the like.

          • GM
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:57 pm | Permalink

            Exactly.

            I had this dawn on me some time ago.

            If you are a Gender Studies graduate, having that kind job is literally the only thing anyone would hire you to do. Because you have absolutely no useful skills, all you know how to do is screech against the patriarchy.

            You can’t even work as a prostitute much of the time because of how ugly and repulsive you are if you have the stereotypical feminist appearance.

            So that provides an extremely strong incentive to fight for the implementation of such policies.

            What I don’t know is whether that is a conscious motivation. I can’t get inside people’s heads, I don’t know what they’re thinking. But it need not be — groups of people have this magical property of fighting for their common material interests without openly discussing it with each other of even explicitly understanding it, it happens all the time in other contexts.

            • yazikus
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

              If you are a Gender Studies graduate, having that kind job is literally the only thing anyone would hire you to do. Because you have absolutely no useful skills, all you know how to do is screech against the patriarchy.

              You can’t even work as a prostitute much of the time because of how ugly and repulsive you are if you have the stereotypical feminist appearance.

              Whoa. That is all.

              • somer
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:17 pm | Permalink

                +1

              • infiniteimprobabilit
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

                Yeah. I tend to sympathise with his rant about the uselessness of Gender Studies, but he completely lost me with the next paragraph.

                cr

              • GM
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:36 pm | Permalink

                So you are saying that your beauty ideal is a woman with a BMI of 35, PCOS, pink hair, thick-rimmed glasses, lots of tattoos, and poor personal hygiene?

                Because that is the only way the statement you are objecting to would be incorrect.

              • infiniteimprobabilit
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:13 pm | Permalink

                @GM If that was directed at Yazikus, I expect he was objecting to your wild stereotyping of all feminists as physically repulsive. Which would be my objection too.

                I detect a bit of strawmanning going on here.

                cr

              • Merilee
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:20 pm | Permalink

                @GM
                Stereotypical feminist appearance ??????
                Too ugly to be a prostitute??I don’t know where to begin…

              • Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:51 pm | Permalink

                That’s of course the only reason feminism exists. Some women are disappointed they are ugly.

                Don’t tell me you’ve never heard of “ad hominem”.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:00 am | Permalink

                @infiniteimprobabilit

                Usually the people who actually stereotype others do not use the word “stereotypical” when they do so. As I did.

                That said, stereotypes usually exist for a reason, and recognizing that not everybody conforms to them does not make them false.

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:05 am | Permalink

                That’s of course the only reason feminism exists. Some women are disappointed they are ugly.

                It is not the reason, but it is definitely a major one. The movement wasn’t started by the Playboy model types, and even today, when some such types will subscribe to it because it is fashionable, the bulk of feminists are on the low end of the attractiveness scale.

                Fact.

                Either that is some incredible coincidence, or there is some causal relationship between the two.

                What could the causal relationship be?

                There are three possibilities:

                1. Ugly women become feminists

                2. Feminism causes women to neglect their appearance and become repulsive fat slobs

                3. There is a positive feedback loop between the two things.

              • Mike Paps
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:26 am | Permalink

                “the bulk of feminists are on the low end of the attractiveness scale.”

                Do you honestly believe that?
                Because that’s certainly not my impression. How about.

                4. Misogynists find feminists, who tend to be intelligent, unattractive.

              • Merilee
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:52 am | Permalink

                Ummm, Gloria Steinem, who infiltrated the Playboy bunnies? ( I hate to even dignify this ugly feminists idea with a response…)

            • gravelinspector-Aidan
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:03 am | Permalink

              You can’t even work as a prostitute much of the time because of how ugly and repulsive you are if you have the stereotypical feminist appearance.

              At least one person in this conversation knows nothing about what prostitutes actually sell, and how they sell it.
              Have you thought for one femtosecond about how much some “johns” (I believe that is the EN_US) would pay to have a stereotypical “feminazi” … searches for a polite simile … rub moisturiser into their tiny tiny hands?

              • GM
                Posted August 13, 2017 at 9:42 am | Permalink

                I don’t think most males who are fantasizing about being dominated by a female are fantasizing about being dominated by a 300-pound foul-smelling wildebeest of one.

            • Diane G.
              Posted August 14, 2017 at 3:53 am | Permalink

              “You can’t even work as a prostitute much of the time because of how ugly and repulsive you are if you have the stereotypical feminist appearance.”

              And see subsequent remarks in the same slanderous vein in GM’s following comments…

              Jerry, is there any reason GM is still posting here?

            • Posted August 14, 2017 at 4:48 am | Permalink

              This comment is offensive. You will apologize for it immediately or be banned.

        • GM
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:51 pm | Permalink

          Apparently I am imagining all those “diversity and inclusion” offices, that first appeared on college campuses and now can be found in all major companies too…

          • yazikus
            Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

            Are you suggesting that private companies/schools should not be allowed to form the offices that they want? That is a far cry from the sort of state-police you were describing.

            • GM
              Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:59 pm | Permalink

              Where did I say that?

              See my comment above for more details.

              • yazikus
                Posted August 12, 2017 at 10:06 pm | Permalink

                I have seen your details above.

            • Simon
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:40 am | Permalink

              Are you suggesting that people should be hired and fired on the basis of their political beliefs? How about race? Should companies be allowed to discriminate by race? How about gender? Do you think it is a good thing that major social media companies manipulate their platforms to favour a political stance?

      • gravelinspector-Aidan
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 4:49 am | Permalink

        I haven’t seen any death camps open

        Dachau KZ wasn’t a death camp, but they did build (and test? not so sure on that point) prototype extermination showers there. I’ve seen them, and spent several very unpleasent hours contemplating that skilled engineers and scientists deliberately designed those things. But when Dachau was designed and built, it was just new type of prison.

        yet.

  9. Frank Bath
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:15 pm | Permalink

    Do we know who started the violence? The marchers, the police, the protesters?

    • Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:32 pm | Permalink

      Antifa, as usual.

      • yazikus
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:03 pm | Permalink

        In this case, you might do well to take your own advice, and wait to see what comes out. From what I’ve seen so far, it doesn’t seem as thought antifa started the violence.

        I was just discussing this with friends who live in PDX. They have had their fair share of run-ins with various protesters/anarchists antifa types, and they said from what they saw, Charlottesville looked nothing like what they are used to.

        • allison
          Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:20 pm | Permalink

          Matt’s knee-jerk response is to blame “Antifa” anytime there’s political violence anywhere in the USA. Like Trump, he can’t bring himself to criticize white supremacists, Nazis, alt-right goons, etc. I read his drivel at another forum for several years.

          • Simon
            Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:46 am | Permalink

            Why would anyone want to assume violence on the part of a group who boast about punching and smashing? A group that openly declares their intention to use violence and have a history of being violent? It really is a mystery, isn’t it?

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted August 12, 2017 at 11:11 pm | Permalink

        You have anything resembling, you know, evidence for that claim?

      • bric
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:49 am | Permalink

        How they see themselves

        • gravelinspector-Aidan
          Posted August 13, 2017 at 4:53 am | Permalink

          They stood against the elements themselves? I haven’t seen more than a few seconds of video from the city, but I didn’t see significant Sturm und Drang, Donner und Blitzen.
          Drama queens. With presidentially small hands, I’m sure.

          • bric
            Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:13 am | Permalink

            A bunch of dweebs who think they are Spartans

            • gravelinspector-Aidan
              Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:31 am | Permalink

              Raised from age 7 in military school ; under-fed to force them to steal from other boys to survive ; main meal a porridge made from un-hulled barley (IIRC) and pig’s blood ; no sex until they’re pushing 30. Yeah, Spartans. Right.
              Now that I think of it, isn’t the leading USian brand of condoms “Trojans”? Losers who fell for a wooden horse (almost literally the oldest trick in the book), and got their communal asses beaten by a bunch of Greek buggers. Someone sack that PR company.

        • Simon
          Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:03 am | Permalink

          Now if only the US could get on with ignoring these harmless loons, crack down on the antifa whackos and get on with the business of democracy. You know, waiting for the government to propose legislation and then either fighting it politically or supporting it without trying to push the other half of the population into a corner and calling them Beelzebub.

          The difference between Trump and your average prez is that he doesn’t display the affectations expected of the political elite and he shows his narcissism for all to see. IOW he presents himself differently from your average personality disordered prez. Anyone think Slick Willy or Unintentionally Hilarious are substantially different? The extent of Slick’s cynical disregard for the truth or other people as prez was mind blowing. Hitch certainly had his and Hil’s number.

    • Randall Schenck
      Posted August 12, 2017 at 8:34 pm | Permalink

      When hundreds of these “storm Troopers” with their weapons, pretend military uniforms, and flags come marching in and meet up with the anti protesters, I don’t see what difference it would make. The guy who mowed down all the people with his car during the thing was from Ohio.

  10. infiniteimprobabilit
    Posted August 12, 2017 at 9:26 pm | Permalink

    If I was a moderate South supporter (if there is any such thing) I would cringe at that photo at the top. It will be republished for many years to come.

    I assume the rest of the rally didn’t jump on the guy with the Nazi flag because they’re all the more extreme elements of the ‘South’ and have appropriated the Confederate flag in the same way ISIS have appropriated the Koran. In other words they’re all nutters.

    cr

    • Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:11 am | Permalink

      Using a car as a terror weapon is of course a Jihadist trick. (Just that Palestinians do in fact have real grievances, even if they’ve misidentified the cause.)

    • Simon
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:21 am | Permalink

      If I could be a bit nitpicky, the Confed flag doesn’t have any commands printed on the back. The Koran and Hadiths on the other hand….

      ISIS have not so much appropriated the Koran as followed it.

      To echo the Gadfather, there really is no distinction between Islam and radical Islam. That is assuming that one takes Islam to mean the political and religious system laid out in the scriptures rather than the faith practiced by the Muslim majority (being optimistic here).

  11. Bob
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:31 am | Permalink

    My watch must have stopped at 1930.

  12. Tom
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:07 am | Permalink

    Surely what really happened when the violence began was an attempt to undermine the authority of Law in Charlottesville?
    We have seen this pattern repeated throughout history. The Left and Right now have their glorious martyrs and another sliver of the publics hard won right to live in safety has been whittled away.
    A plague on both sides!

    • Historian
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:03 am | Permalink

      When a person attempts to make an equivalence between American Nazis and their opposition, I can only conclude that that person has absolutely no idea what the Nazis stand for.

      • Simon
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:41 am | Permalink

        It doesn’t matter what they stand for. They are not a credible threat. I get the impression that a large segment of the US population need the Nazis to be a big enough stick to beat Trump with.

        Anyway, if you want to play that game, the crimes of communism in the 20th century are arguably greater than those of Nazism. How about being consistent and sounding the alarm and warning of the dire threat posed by openly communist antifa nuts? Communist ideology and it’s attendant authoritarian intolerance actually has way more of a hold on some Western institutions than Nazism. It is less visible to many as a threat because communism is supposedly about equality. Attempted implementation is usually deadly with enemies of the people being identified everywhere. As they say, communists are always one execution away from Utopia.

      • Tom
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:56 am | Permalink

        Stood for.
        Despite the fantasies of the Right and Left the NSDP was destroyed decades ago.
        What we have now is the same use of the politically obsolete as was common in 19th century Europe when many a violent post Napoleonic political group could revel in the notoriety of being termed Jacobins.

      • Saul Sorrell-Till
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:14 pm | Permalink

        Thankyou Historian for having the mental energy to deal with posts like this. There’s so much weaselly apologetics and gutless far-right whataboutery in this comments section it’s physically exhausting to read it.

        • Diane G.
          Posted August 14, 2017 at 4:05 am | Permalink

          + 1

          Thank you, Historian.

  13. pck
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 2:16 am | Permalink

    Why is this man calling for unity with literal nazis?

    • Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:08 am | Permalink

      Exactly. And the answer, unfortunately, is the obvious one.

    • Simon
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 11:44 am | Permalink

      He wasn’t.

  14. gravelinspector-Aidan
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 4:58 am | Permalink

    Yeah, right. He wants unity.

    Ein Folk, ein Fuhrer, ein Reich. Ein Fuhrer mit kleinen Hände.

  15. Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:07 am | Permalink

    I think it is now completely clear that these people are not Trump’s base, so much as he is one of them.

    He doesn’t reach out to middle America because he knows that if he tried he would fail — just as these Nazis have failed to integrate into society and want to destroy it instead.

  16. Bruce Gorton
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:10 am | Permalink

    Maybe it is just my inner cynic, but I can’t help but notice that every time a politician calls for unity, it generally means whatever is happening is somehow their fault.

  17. Don Quijote
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 5:12 am | Permalink

    I am old enough to have lived through the Cuban missile crisis but I had confidence in JFK to act strongly but appropriately to the situation. In President Fart’s short term in office we have come to the point where none of us can be sure that Fart will not strike first because somebody calls him a name.

    Now we see Americans openly parading a Nazi flag on the streets of America let alone the Confederate one. I am sure that many of you have fathers and grandfathers who fought in WW11 against what that flag stood for.

    History repeating itself? I don’t know but these are frightening times indeed.

    • Posted August 13, 2017 at 6:12 am | Permalink

      As Marx said, first time as tragedy, second time as farce.

    • Torbjörn Larsson
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:20 am | Permalink

      Sad but true, that is what strategic no-planning results in. (Disclaimer: I think realpolitik is useful, but mostly when it is roped to a long term strategy or in crisis – not for creating crises.)

      I am not sure about Trump’s spewing from *both* ends, but I note that he has the physiology for it and not much else (Trumpet mouth, big ass, small hands).

    • Simon
      Posted August 13, 2017 at 12:01 pm | Permalink

      Those fathers and grandfathers fought for the right of some nuts to openly march with Nazi flags. The biggest threat to US society right now is the massive overstating of the significance and the concerted attempt on the part of some to make enemies. People will not join under the banner of Nazism unless they feel sufficiently threatened and marginalized. That scenario is a long way off, but the left are obviously determined to do what they can to help. Strong emotion is the enemy of reason. Remove tension from the political climate and the Nazis can do nothing but bluster ineffectually. Humorous ridicule is the obvious response, not violence.

      • GBJames
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 12:12 pm | Permalink

        Humorous ridicule is of course appropriate. Also appropriate is the recognition that these guys are a bigger threat than you will admit.

        Steve Bannnon, Sebastian Gorka, Stephen Miller. These guys are heroes to the “some nuts” you don’t think are worth worrying about. I don’t see how you can blame anyone but the political right for “some nuts” of the political right.

      • Saul Sorrell-Till
        Posted August 13, 2017 at 1:25 pm | Permalink

        Just so I know, for the purposes of future debates, how much ‘marginalisation’ does it take for a young white man to want to gas the Jews? Or drive a(extremely expensive) car into a group of counterprotesters and kill a young woman?

        Pathetic.

    • Diane G.
      Posted August 14, 2017 at 4:10 am | Permalink

      “Now we see Americans openly parading a Nazi flag on the streets of America let alone the Confederate one. I am sure that many of you have fathers and grandfathers who fought in WW11 against what that flag stood for.”

      Yes. In another news article I read today the author pointed out the irony of the far right–always the most rabid supporters of any military action the US takes–effectively dissing all the World War II vets who defeated Nazism.

  18. Randy schenck
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 7:10 am | Permalink

    The president, by his words about this event shows clear and distinct issues with this guy that cannot be overlooked. His inability to put this on the white nationalists and Nazis show a weakness and a complicity. There is no doubt. Listen to the KKK leaders words and look at the posters with Trump all over them. Yet he says the blame is on all sides. What the hell is that? Was it the Jew’s fault that Hitler was just a little crazy.

  19. Torbjörn Larsson
    Posted August 13, 2017 at 10:12 am | Permalink

    The energetic incompetence* of the current US president have him fueling fires domestically as well as abroad. It is of course his pattern to avoid criticizing right extremism and right extremist terrorism, while he regularly criticize islamism and islamist terrorism. And to combine commentary on tragic events with bragging about own achievements.

    That Trumpism is more of a symptom than a primary cause for the century long slide of US into a compromised democracy due to social change can be seen in the leader of the KKK sideshow [ http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40915356 ]. Duke felt both encouraged before and discouraged after the event by Trump, as he wanted no criticism at all [ http://www.expressen.se/kronikorer/anne-sofie-naslund/har-donald-trump-gjort-rasistiskt-hat-rumsrent/ ]!

    *It was funny to first hear Trevor Noah on the Daily Show describe Trump’s behavior in a CNN interview after the leaked phone transcripts to foreign leaders; Trump admits he starts asking population figures. Then reading the European leadership complaining about that. (The one upshot for them is that Trump’s limited vocabulary has started a “Trump Word Bingo” tradition in order to endure his trivial excreta!)


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