Anti-Semitism of the day: Chicago lesbians ban “Jewish pride” flag from their Dyke March

I am deeply ashamed of Chicago’s gay community today.

From both the left-wing Israel paper Haaretz and the Windy City Media Group, we get a disturbing report: at yesterday’s “Dyke March” in Chicago, a parade celebrating lesbian and LGBT pride and achievements, Jewish lesbians carrying the “Jewish pride” flag were asked to leave.  Why? Because the flag “triggered” some of the participants, and apparently because some participants considered the march implicitly “anti-Zionist and pro-Palestinian”. Here, from Pink News, is what the Jewish Pride flag looks like. It’s basically the Gay Pride flag with a star of David on it, a symbol of Judaism. Note that it is not the Israeli flag. (These pictures are from the annual Gay Pride Parade in Tel Aviv; photos by Jack Guez):


What went down? Let the Jewish lesbians speak, as reported in Windy City Media:

. . . .asked to leave by Collective members of the Dyke march were three people carrying Jewish Pride flags (a rainbow flag with a Star of David in the center).

According to one of those individuals—A Wider Bridge Midwest Manager Laurel Grauer—she and her friends were approached a number of times in the park because they were holding the flag.

“It was a flag from my congregation which celebrates my queer, Jewish identity which I have done for over a decade marching in the Dyke March with the same flag,” she told Windy City Times.

She added that she lost count of the number of people who harassed her.

One Dyke March collective member asked by Windy City Times for a response, said the women were told to leave because the flags “made people feel unsafe,” that the march was “anti-Zionist” and “pro-Palestinian.”

“They were telling me to leave because my flag was a trigger to people that they found offensive,” Grauer said. “Prior to this [march] I had never been harassed or asked to leave and I had always carried the flag with me.”

Another of those individuals asked to leave was an Iranian Jew Eleanor Shoshany-Anderson.

“I was here as a proud Jew in all of my identities,” Shoshany-Anderson asserted. “The Dyke March is supposed to be intersectional. I don’t know why my identity is excluded from that. I fell that, as a Jew, I am not welcome here.”

As of time of midnight Saturday, Windy City Times received no official statement from Dyke March organizers. However, social media posts in support of their decision claimed that a rainbow flag with a Star of David is a form of pink washing (a theory postulated by a City University of New York professor which claims that Israeli support of LGBTQ communities is designed to detract attention from civil and human rights abuses of Palestinian people.)

What a crock! Can you actually believe those people who found a gay pride flag with a Star of David “triggering” or, worse, “made them feel unsafe”? That’s crap, of course: the reason the flagbearers were asked to leave is because Israel is demonized as an “apartheid state” by many on the Ctrl-Left. But that’s just a cover for the anti-Semitism implicit (and explicit) in “anti-Zionism”. Further, the flagbearers weren’t Israeli, but Americans and Iranians!

Sadly, I read this as anti-Semitism on the part of the gay and lesbian community. The flag was a Gay Pride flag with a Star of David, not an Israeli flag, though you could, I suppose, say that it was a “pinkwashed” Israeli flag. But the bearers said it symbolized their Judaism and their lesbian pride, not a jingoistic pride in Israel.

The Star of David has always been a universal symbol if Judaism, used by Jews on their Torah covers, menorahs, and worn around their necks well before 1948 —and, on armbands and patches, was used to mark people as Jews under the Nazis. Putting it on a Gay Pride flag should raise no alarums—unless you’re anti-Semitic.

Further, the attitude that Israel has no right to exist, as espoused by leaders of the BDS movement and those who call themselves anti-Zionists, is also anti-Semitic. The singling out of Israel as the most demonic and oppressive of states, to the extent that even a Jewish Pride flag can be “triggering” since it’s seen as “pro-Zionist” and “anti-Palestinian— is also anti-Semitic, as there are nations in the same region that are not only more oppressive, but where homosexuality is a capital offense! But apparently to the Left those countries get a pass, for they’re inhabited by people of color. Try being a gay in Iran or Afghanistan or Palestine, or waving a “Jewish pride” flag in Kabul or Baghdad! You’d probably wind up dead.

The “pinkwashing” canard is equally ridiculous: Israelis really do favor and have gay rights, and many Muslim countries don’t. To excuse that, gays and Leftists claim that Israel’s gay-friendliness is a ruse concocted by the government to falsely show its liberalism and hide its “apartheid” policies. That’s a risible conspiracy theory. The more parsimonious explanation, and one supported by the data, is that Israelis really do have a liberal stance on gays.

What this shows is that the gay community, at least in Chicago, has bought fully into identity politics, to the extent that those who are Jewish must hide their identity lest they “trigger” others. And, without any evidence, the lesbians asked to were automatically assumed to accept (and endorse) the policies of the Israeli government. Even flaunting the Star of David is enough to trigger someone, though I suppose it was perfectly okay to wave the flags of Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan, all of which all bear Islamic symbols. I wonder how an “Iranian Pride” flag would have fared?

And so we learn that there is anti-Semitism in Chicago’s gay community, that being gay ranks higher than being Jewish on the “oppressed” hierarchy, and that gays can be just as intolerant as Saudi Muslims when it comes to Jews.

I’m in full sympathy with gay people’s struggle for their rights and for societal acceptance, but I condemn in the strongest possible terms this expression of—yes, let’s call it what it is—anti-Semitism.

h/t: Orli

143 Comments

  1. BobTerrace
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:52 am | Permalink

    Shame on those leaders who asked them to leave. They should know better. After being discriminated against their entire life, they discriminate against others as soon as they get a chance from a position of authority.

    • mikeyc
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:11 pm | Permalink

      The oppressed become the oppressors. Same as it ever was. Humans are nothing if not predictable.

      • Ken Kukec
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:57 pm | Permalink

        There are those who claim that the dearest wish of a slave is not freedom, but to have a slave of one’s own.

        I prefer to take a more Lincolnesque view of these things, but sometimes it ain’t easy.

  2. Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:56 am | Permalink

    This, right on the heels of the Gay Pride Parade in Be’er Sheva, Israel, just before Shabbat. How antisemitism trumps everything!

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:57 am | Permalink

      Where is the rule that says one cannot be both LGBTQIA and Jewish?

    • Mark Joseph
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:27 pm | Permalink

      How antisemitism *trumps* everything!

      I see what you did there…

  3. GBJames
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:58 am | Permalink

    Appalling but not surprising.

  4. neanderthalhead
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:59 am | Permalink

    “the reason the flagbearers were asked to leave is because Israel is demonized as an ‘apartheid state’ by many on the Ctrl-Left. But that’s just a cover for the anti-Semitism implicit (and explicit) in ‘anti-Zionism’.”

    Yes, banning those marchers sounds like bs, but this is bs, too. For one thing, Israel should be criticized for their racist policies towards the Palestinians. For another, it’s false to equate criticism of Israel and anti-semitism. It’s disappointing to actually have to call out this sort of shabby intellectual blackmail.

    • BobTerrace
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:05 am | Permalink

      You can call Israel’s policies against the Palestinians racist, but their policies are against the people who are sworn to eliminate them from existence, so therefore you would be completely wrong.

      • Mackster
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 4:32 pm | Permalink

        I don’t believe that “racist” is the right term but there’s no question that Israel’s policies (and those of the Yeshuv that preceded the state)can and should be criticized. There is ample evidence that Zionism sought the elimination of the indigenous Palestinian population since the early part of the 20th century. That doesn’t excuse the radical Palestinians and others whose hatred blinds them to the fact that murderous policies are not to be tolerated. Likewise, the Israeli propaganda that Palestinians as a people are “sworn to eliminate” Israel, does not excuse the brutality of a 50 year military occupation and the subjugation of the Palestinian people.

        • BJ
          Posted June 26, 2017 at 7:59 pm | Permalink

          “There is ample evidence that Zionism sought the elimination of the indigenous Palestinian population since the early part of the 20th century.”

          What is this evidence? Israel continues to let workers from Palestine into Israel every day so they can make often 50 to 100 times more money than they could make in a day in Palestine (and the economy in Palestine isn’t shit because of Israel, it’s shit because the millions of dollars that constantly flow into the country go to the terrorist organizations that run it and which are supported by most of the citizenry). Israel has a significant population of Muslim Arabs who hold complete Israeli citizenship.

          • Mackster
            Posted June 27, 2017 at 10:16 am | Permalink

            Zionist leaders from Herzl and Weizmann to Ben-Gurion and Jabotinsky spoke and wrote often of the need for what they euphemistically termed ‘transfer’ and of the so-called “Palestinian problem’. Zionism became increasingly accepting of effecting ‘transfer’ by whatever means were necessary, including force.
            Citing Israel’s generous admission of Palestinian workers confirms the apartheid comparisons that have been made. White South Africa generously allowed the ghettoized black population to earn a living providing needed services as long as they returned to their black enclaves at the end of the day.
            Yes, Israel has a population of Arabs and other non-Jews who are 2nd class citizens subject to legalized discrimination.

            • Posted June 27, 2017 at 10:30 am | Permalink

              Sounds like Fake News to me: I’m not aware of Herzl or any of the others requiring ethnic cleansing. Feel free to provide credible links to back up your argument, though — emphasis on credible — and how it is born out as a fact, today.
              Honestly, it seems you have suffered the brainwashing of modern antisemitic propaganda, couched as antizionism, and have swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. I’m beginning to feel quite sorry for you.
              At the same time, as you are adult enough to be here, I recognize it as your responsibility to know better. It takes more effort and might be less fun than being a troll, but it is far worthier in the long run.

              • Mackster
                Posted June 27, 2017 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

                Personalizing the discussion with accusations of disseminating “Fake News” and being a “troll” and a victim of anti-semitic brainwashing adds nothing to the discussion (see the commenting guidelines).
                Ben-Gurion in particular became increasingly accepting of violence to achieve ‘transfer’ from the mid-30’s on and spells that out quite clearly in private letters and diary. However, Zionist doctrine was well-aware of the ‘Palestinian problem’ and the need for ethnic cleansing in fulfilling the promise of the Balfour Declaration.

              • Malgorzata
                Posted June 27, 2017 at 1:46 pm | Permalink

                There is a whole industry of false quotations. Many of those false quotations are attributed to Ben Gurion. One of disseminators of such quotations is an Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe, who openly stated a few times that he was less interested in facts than in the “cause” he was fighting for. In no confirmed and authenticated speeches, letters or diaries had Ben Gurion ever spoken about the necessity of “violence to achieve ‘transfer’” (as you wrote in your comment). The Declaration of Independence, written mainly by Ben Gurion, speaks about equal rights to all citizens of Israel and about rights of Arab minority. After 1948 war, when Jordan expelled all Jews (which it didn’t kill), Egypt expelled all Jews from Gaza and made the life unbearable to its own Jewish population (with other Arab countries following suit), Israel didn’t expel Arabs who stayed in Israel and didn’t make their life unbearable either. They received citizenship. It did expel people who after the armistice attacked Jews in Israel – each person separately after a case argued in a court of law. So today we have a situation when some Arab states are completely “Judenrein”, other have tens of Jews where they had hundreds of thousand, and Israel where 20% of population are Arabs. So where the “transfer” happened? Where was ethnic cleansing?

                Even UNRWA, institution not overly friendly to Israel, admitted that Israel treated Arabs in Israel much better than Arab countries treated Arabs. From UNRWA’s 1950 report:
                “31. Recent discussions with the Israel Government indicate that the idea of relief distribution is repugnant to it, and the Agency was informed that already many of the 24,000 remaining refugees were employed and that all able-bodied refugees desiring employment could be absorbed on works projects if they would register at the government registry offices for that purpose. It was stated that they all have status as citizens of Israel and are entitled to treatment as such. It was claimed that after cessation of relief, aged and infirm refugees would be cared for under the normal social welfare machinery of Israel.”

              • Mackster
                Posted June 27, 2017 at 3:13 pm | Permalink

                Well, it was not only Ben-Gurion but numerous officials and champions of the Zionist cause who embraced the necessity of ‘transfer’ which is simply a euphemism for ethnic cleansing. Historical documents clearly indicate that there was a plan for the implementation of ‘transfer’ long before May, 1948. In fact, much of the ethnic cleansing had already occurred between the announcement of the U.N. partition and May, 1948. A ‘transfer’ committee had been established and coordination and assignment of the effort to specific parts of the Haganah, Irgun, and Stern Gang,and other military groups was closely monitored by Ben-Gurion and others. If that isn’t endorsing violence to achieve transfer, I don’t know what is.
                If you deny the truth of anything written by Ilan Pape, there are any number of other historians who confirm that ‘transfer’ was a guiding core principle of Zionist doctrine.

              • Malgorzata
                Posted June 27, 2017 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

                There are historians and there are facts. Where and when was this “transfer”? Are there seven Arabs in Israel like there are seven Jews in Egypt? Or possibly no Arabs at all, like in Libia, Jordan and many other Arabs countries? Who and when implemented these “plans”? Of all documents, historical accounts, contemporary witness reports I read what transpires is the idea from Arab side to finish off the Jews. Where is the outrage for Abbas plans to have his future Palestinian state without any Jews? Why comments made a long time ago by people whose ideas were not implemented are written about (and often taken out of context and distorted, sometimes invented out of thin air) but the reality is something you and so many others are trying not to see? The core principle of Zionist doctrin was the return of persecuted Jewish people to the one place they once upon a time were calling their home. It was definitely not to “transfer” the population which lived there, and it was never realized either. And not because of lack of possibilities. I don’t know where you are writing from and whether you ever had close contact with real transfer. I write from Poland. Millions of Poles were “transfered” from their homes in Eastern Poland (my mother and I among them), and millions of Germans were “transfered” from Eastern Germany. The world democratic powers “moved” the whole country. Jews in Israel never did anything like it.

              • Mackster
                Posted June 28, 2017 at 10:01 am | Permalink

                The ethnic cleansing took place from the time of the U.N. partition resolution of 1947 through the end of the 1948 war although a large part of the cleansing was actually achieved prior to May 15, 1948. Historians differ but consensus seems to be that approx. 750,000 Palestinians were expelled. Your attempt to equate and contrast this horrific action with the treatment of Poles, Arabs in other countries, and Germans misses the point. This is not about which group of people was treated worse than another. The tragedy of the Palestinian expulsion is not mitigated by the other tragedies you cite. In my own country Native Americans have been the victims of genocide and ethnic cleansing for centuries. That in no way absolves the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. By the way, the cleansing continues as Israel embraces its Greater Israel manifest destiny. Expulsion and ghettoization continue in the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Negev.

              • Malgorzata
                Posted June 28, 2017 at 10:35 am | Permalink

                There was no ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. There are contemporary accounts, there are documents and no number of ideologically biased historians can change the facts. Rich Arabs started to escape the coming war already 1947, going to neighbouring countries. Some leaders left as well. Arab armies, especially Egyptian and Iraqi, called to Arabs to leave their homes to let armies free to massacre the Jews. They were promised they will return in a few days and get the spoils. Without local leaders and middle class many escaped. After Deir Jassin Arab leaders deliberately exaggerated what happened ther (among other stating that Jews raped Arab women) which caused panic and further escapes. Some were really expelled by Israelis – the ones who continued to fight. Most of the 750.000 Arab refuges escaped without ever seeing any Israeli soldier. There are videos with wittness saying that, there are newspapers clippings from this time, there are memoirs of Arab politician who regret what Arabs has done. You bought the propaganda lie and you are disseminating it. If Jews wanted to accomplish ethnic cleansing why didn’t they continue after the war ended? Why Jordan expelled all Jews living in Jerusalem and other territories Jordan captured, but Arabs who stayed in their homes in the Israeli part were not expelled? Why not finish the job if the other side was expelling all Jews to the last and the world was silent (Great Britain even helped Jordan).

                Expulsion means that expelled population is getting smaller. For example, after expulsion of Jews from Jerusalem and (as it was called then – Judea and Samaria, and now West Bank) a Jewish population there got from tens of thousands to zero. In Israel Arab population is steadily growing.Your concept of expulsion is somwhat strange.

                And I really think it is quite devious of you to start ennumarate all “sins” of Israel under a post which is about blatant, unashamed antisemitism and racism. It is almost as if you not only didn’t want to see racism when it’s before your eyes but were of the opinion that these Jews got what they deserved because – Israel.

              • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

                +10000000000

              • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

                Dude, you really should see for yourself what you think you are so certain about. Come to Israel. Reality is real. Your propaganda, on the other hand….

        • Posted June 27, 2017 at 10:17 am | Permalink

          Wow. Have you tried explaining your version of history to the Bedouins whose ancestors fought alongside the Jews in 1948? Bedouins still support the state of Israel, because they recognize themselves and are recognized by everyone else as — what’s the word? Some strange Israelis thing… Oh, yeah: citizens with full and equal rights.

          • Mackster
            Posted June 27, 2017 at 1:23 pm | Permalink

            The suggestion that a majority of Bedouins joined forces with the Haganah in 1948 is simply not supported by historical evidence. It also distorts the convoluted and temporary nature of alignments during that period. Arabs had issues with other Arabs and with Israel. Indeed, the Hashemites secretly aligned with Israel in an effort to achieve territorial expansion. Never-the-less, the vast majority of Bedouins resisted the Haganah’s relentless and brutal efforts to expel them from the ‘Greater Israel’ that was within their sights.
            Alleging that Bedouins “still support the state of Israel” flies in the face of Israel’s most recent brutal campaign of destruction of Bedouin villages and on-going efforts to re-settle them in state-controlled enclaves.

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:06 am | Permalink

      Clearly, you have no personal experience in open Israeli society. I rub elbows on a daily basis with those you consider victims of apartheid, here, and we live in equality.

      • Mackster
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 4:35 pm | Permalink

        Then you’d be happy to accept the totally equal property rights granted to your Israeli citizen Palestinian brothers and sisters. And no doubt you’d have no problem being confined to the Palestinian enclaves of the West Bank and Gaza where all live in eqality.

        • Posted June 27, 2017 at 10:19 am | Permalink

          You come here to Israel, get in touch with reality, and quit spewing strawmen.

    • Mack
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:14 am | Permalink

      Treating individual Jews as proxies for the state of Israel is precisely anti-Semitic. This is the accepted direction of the far left and has little to explicitly do with this manifestation at a LGBT event.

      I feel like many who tar individual Jews with the perceived sins of the Israeli state don’t even consider that they’re bigots. This attitude has contributed to the current view on the left that Jews are no longer consider to be an oppressed group and vis-a-vis Israel, are now collectively placed highly in the oppression pyramid.

      It’s sad, but accusations of collective guilt has always dogged the Jews – always seen as nefarious conspirators who’s guilt runs not from their acts, but in their very blood.

      • Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am | Permalink

        Exactly!

      • Mary Drake
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:31 am | Permalink

        Well put, Mack. Thanks for laying it out so clearly.

      • Heather Hastie
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 5:43 pm | Permalink

        Yes, well said.

      • Harrison
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 2:01 pm | Permalink

        Identity politics is the new racism.

        You are guilty for all crimes of the group.

      • Mackster
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 4:42 pm | Permalink

        Note that this response speaks directly to the comments of BobTerrace (above) with a few simple changes:
        “…many who tar individual” Palestinians “with the perceived sins of the” Palestinian Authority “don’t even consider that they’re bigots.”

    • fizziks
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:25 am | Permalink

      Pop quiz, and answer honestly.

      If you were an LGBT Arab, where would you be the safest and have the most opportunity to live as you want?

      A) Israel
      B) Any one of the 23 Arab league countries, including those “Palestinian” areas presently controlled by either Fateh or Hamas

      If you chose B, you are a liar. In fact, your very existence would be illegal under almost all of the places in scenario B, and would be punishable by death in some of them.

      Israel would also be the better option if you were an atheist or agnostic Arab, a Christian Arab, a member of a historically despised Bedouin tribe, etc. Israel is by far the freest country in the Middle East, including for Arabs.

      • Historian
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:50 am | Permalink

        Of course, you are correct. But the young and the ignorant are unaware of this. Feeling oppressed (which to some extent they still are, although things are getting better), some gay people feel compelled to express their youthful idealism through support of the Palestinians. It is not hard to understand how dislike of certain Israeli policies (which many Israelis themselves oppose) could quickly morph into out-and-out anti-Semitism. Youthful idealism in general can lead to dangerous deeds. Playing to this idealism is how terrorist groups get their recruits.

        Leaders of the gay community need to quash this anti-Semitism immediately. Otherwise, they risk the loss of support of many in the straight community, particularly Jews (gay or not) whom I suspect make substantial financial contributions to gay causes. We’ll see if gay leaders are smart enough to realize this.

        • Tom
          Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:51 pm | Permalink

          There is a bitter irony here.

        • Posted June 25, 2017 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

          Unfortunately, I think this sort of antisemitism rises up in underprivileged groups who have been supported by Jews — right about at the time they start feeling empowered and no longer in such desperate need that they will accept Jewish support. I’ve seen it before.

          • BJ
            Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:52 pm | Permalink

            Yup, Jews did a huge amount of both funding and outright supporting of the civil rights movement decades ago, and ended up with Louis Farakhan and the Nation of Islam. According to multiple studies, antisemitism is actually higher among the black population than the population as a whole in the US, and I’m sure this is at least in some part connected to the influence the Nation of Islam had (and still has in some ways).

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

      Criticising Israel is one thing, siding with those who would massacre every living Jew is another.

    • Mackster
      Posted June 26, 2017 at 1:13 pm | Permalink

      Agree that banning this group was liberal, political correctness BS. Also agree that playing the anti-semitic card in response to any criticism of Israel or Zionism is BS.
      I’m all for allowing anyone supporting LBGTQ rights to participate. But let’s not conflate issues here.
      What I fail to understand is the need/desire to insert religion into the support of LBGTQ rights. If you want to support LBGTQ rights, what does your religion have to do with it? Let the rainbow flag fly without inserting crosses, stars of David, crescents, or any other religious symbols.

      • Posted July 1, 2017 at 7:47 am | Permalink

        «What I fail to understand is the need/desire to insert religion into the support of LBGTQ rights.»

        How about you don’t insert religion in this case?!

        Unless you’ve lived in a cave for at least the last century, you should be aware that “Jewish” is something that names, respectively the Star of David is a symbol for both the religion and the people. At least since Hitler used to put yellow six-pointed stars on Jews—because they had “Jewish blood”, mind you, not because they had a Torah in their house (thought the latter was correlated with the former).

  5. Rob
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    “Unsafe”. One of those words like “Stifle” (remember Archie Bunker shhhhing his wife.) It just means, “Shut up. No discussion allowed.”

  6. merilee
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:04 am | Permalink

    Can’t we all just be people, people??
    Pollyanna

    • Christopher
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:54 am | Permalink

      “Be Excellent To Each Other!”
      My general philosophy for life, shamelessly pilfered from those two intellectual and philosophical giants, Bill and Ted.

      • Posted June 26, 2017 at 11:59 am | Permalink

        I use this too. “Arete” is usually translated “virtue”, but I’ve been told “excellence” works too, so perhaps B&T work better than one might think!

  7. Joseph Stans
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:06 am | Permalink

    You could see it coming: At some point, the lesbian community would decide that they could flip this on its head and use it as an excuse for their further empowerment.

    Remember the power is one of the most powerful motivators — and everyone wants power.

  8. Craw
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    It’s more a function of this being given left rather than gay I think, being an example of oppression Olympics.

  9. Brujo Feo
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:18 am | Permalink

    Once I’ve heard the words “trigger” OR “intersectional,” I’ve already stopped listening. Folks who want to discuss such things are of course free to do so, but I’ll be dead of old age long before I’ll have a single minute for them to discuss it with me.

    • Historian
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:33 am | Permalink

      I am also viscerally repelled at the expression “feeling unsafe.”

      • nicky
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 9:45 pm | Permalink

        Feeling unsafe? That is what a LGB or T person would feel in an Islamic country, including the Palestinian territories.

    • Laurance
      Posted June 26, 2017 at 7:44 am | Permalink

      “Trigger.” I know how it feels to be triggered. It happened to me twice. It’s a horrible thing to experience.

      And “feeling unsafe”. I know from painful and bitter experience what it’s like to really really feel unsafe, seriously unsafe.

      It took some time but I did get over it. I was able to get past the damage and fragility and back to feeling normal again.

      I don’t like these words, however, because I think they’re overused and cheapened and made meaningless. If I feel “triggered” and “unsafe” any time I am exposed to something new or different or which requires thought, I’m not going to be learning and growing.

      Why are people feeling so triggered and unsafe nowadays? What horrible things have happened to them that they are so traumatized that they cannot hear anything new or controversial?

      But “intersectional”. That’s a new one for me. What’s wrong with this word? (No, I’m not trying to argue or disagree or support something unpalatable. This is a new word for me and I’d like to hear what it’s all about.)

      • Brujo Feo
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 11:58 am | Permalink

        Laurance: intersectionality, as I understand it, is an SJW (“social justice warrior”) method of accounting, by which one stacks grievances on top of one another, and the person with the most or coolest grievances wins.

        So gay white men get marginal points for being gay, but they’re only one grievance away from the white male cis-gender patriarchy. Probably more part of the problem than the solution, as it were. Whereas if you’re a black lesbian transgender elderly person who is wheelchair-bound and allergic to chemtrails, you’re at the “intersection” of prejudices against more categories, and so you win.

        I’m sure that others here can explain this much better than I can. Actually, the wiki page is probably a good place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersectionality

        • Brujo Feo
          Posted June 26, 2017 at 12:04 pm | Permalink

          Laurance, I just noticed that Craw, above, used the term “Oppression Olympics.” Same thing, as I understand it: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Oppression_Olympics

        • Laurance
          Posted June 26, 2017 at 10:02 pm | Permalink

          Thank you for responding to me. Back in the 1990’s we used the term, “Collecting Victim Credibility Points.”

          And this is a damn shame! The way I see it, there really are multiple prejudices that are genuinely relevant. But when people collect their Victim Credibility Points to win the Oppression Olympics (thanks for the links) they do nobody any service and they cheapen and invalidate genuine social problems.

          And again I ask, what’s the deal with this “triggering” business?

          As I said, I’ve experienced triggering twice, and it was horrible. Nothing was said here about “trigger warnings”, but I can say that if I’d known what was coming I could have taken a deep breath and gotten ready to go through the experience. I think a large part of the situations was that I was blindsided, didn’t see it coming and got blown away.

          But what is it that college students are afraid of? What will happen if they aren’t warned that something nasty is coming? Were they all battered wives or raped children? If their lives were so horrible that they are susceptible to having uncontrollable flashbacks if something is mentioned in class…was it that bad? I hear that the climate on college campuses is radically different from what I grew up with.

          I know from experience that it is possible to get over being triggered. It can take time, it took me time to get over the abuse, but I did. (Laurance, by the way, is actually 75-year-old Laura) I don’t know what other people are being triggered about, if they were abused, or if they just want the world to be the way they like it.

          Does anybody know just what it is that has this generations of young people so “triggered”?

          And thank you, Brujo Feo, for responding to me after saying that you stop listening when you hear these words and that you’ll be dead of old age before you discuss these things. I don’t blame you! I turn off when I hear these things hurled as an insult or silencing device. Yet I think we need to be able to talk about what on earth is happening these days and what people are doing and how what they do interferes with looking at genuine oppression.

          • Posted July 1, 2017 at 7:57 am | Permalink

            «But what is it that college students are afraid of?»
            «Does anybody know just what it is that has this generations of young people so “triggered”?»

            Opinions they disagree with and words they don’t like, for the most part.

  10. Malgorzata
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:21 am | Permalink

    sub

  11. DrBrydon
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:26 am | Permalink

    It’s always sad when a group that has worked hard to achieve toleration shows its intolerance.

  12. Orli Peter
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:28 am | Permalink

    Remember when the extremists on the Left were saying, they are not against Jews, just against the current government of Israel? Then it moved to, we are not against Jews, just against Israel retaining the West Bank. Then for many, it moved to, we are not against Jews, just Israel’s right to exist at all. Now, it’s, we are not against Jews, but some of our members are, so leave.

    • Tom
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:58 pm | Permalink

      Perhaps it’s now the Israeli tolerance of LBGT that so upsets the Palestinians?
      Can we expect a new campaign the Left wanting the Left bank made LGBT free?

  13. Ruthann
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:37 am | Permalink

    That those people felt “unsafe” is ridiculous. But if Jewish LGBT people put the Star of David –a religious symbol–on their flags, should Muslims be allowed to have the crescent on their flags and the Christians a cross?

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:46 am | Permalink

      I don’t see why not!

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

      I would very much like to see that. It would also serve as a useful controlled experiment: Who gets booted out?

    • Harrison
      Posted June 26, 2017 at 2:04 pm | Permalink

      I would predict that a crescent moon rainbow flag would ONLY garner flak from orthodox Muslims.

  14. dd
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:40 am | Permalink

    Tel Aviv, and Israel in general, have been a haven for gays since the 1970s. Especially Palestinian and Arab ones.

    I tell that to progressives and they doubt me…even though I am gay. But so would the gay SJWs.

    Interruption and threats are now the norm:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/capitol-pride-parade-rerouted-due-to-protesters/2017/06/10/23c37ef0-4e31-11e7-987c-42ab5745db2e_story.html?utm_term=.650440c998ab

  15. Christopher
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:49 am | Permalink

    Another sad example of going so far to the left that one ends up on the right, so that one shares more with the far right bigots than the liberal left one claims to be. And again it is worth remembering that a person can both support LGBT rights, support Jews, support Israel’s right to exist while also supporting Palestine’s right to exist, and simultaneously being critical of Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, and Palestinian treatment of women, gays, and the violent attacks on Jews and Jewish settlements. It is just not possible to treat the situation with a broad, simplistic brush as the ctrl Left are wont to do. It shows a lack of intellectual honesty and depth, at the very least and smacks of anti-semitism at the very worst. Perhaps next year there will be an Aryan Nation faction of the gay pride parade, complete with a rainbow swastika flag.

  16. Carey
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:02 pm | Permalink

    Although I am not Jewish, I am horrified that is acceptable in some circles to be anti-Semitic or anti-Jewish. Don’t people remember about the Holocaust and fear it happening again? There is a big difference between critising the policies of the Israeli government and discriminating against Jewish people. This is where Identity Politics can lead. Hitler was evil for hating Jews, but Muslims get a pass because they are oppressed.

  17. Diana MacPherson
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

    Oh for fox sake. The pride parade are really going ctrl left. The Toronto police weren’t allowed to march with them in uniform because Black Lives Matter forced the organizers to disinvited them. They went to the NY pride instead. Keep in mind, the ctrl-left spokes person for BLM in Toronto calls Justin Trudeau a white supremely and the current chief of police in Toronto is black.

    Now this. It’s like every left movement starts out well then jumps the curl-left shark.

    • Diana MacPherson
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:17 pm | Permalink

      CTRL-left shark.

  18. Beth Purkhiser
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:40 pm | Permalink

    What is it with “triggering”? I run into FB posts all the time now that describe what the post is about first, and then after several spaced lines, you’ll finally get to the post. Apparently so people won’t be “triggered” by the post. Am I being insensitive, or are we all getting just a little too delicate? I’ll admit I am horrified by pictures of animal abuse and do everything I can to avoid them. But can the Star of David on a flag honestly compare? I would be a heck of a lot more “triggered” by being asked to leave than for seeing the flag. That’s horrible.

    • Diana MacPherson
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 1:05 pm | Permalink

      And a lot of the time, there is much less warning, if at all, of animal abuse pictures. I too try to avoid those but I’m often caught off guard. However, say “Israel” & a bunch of people faint, clutching their pearls. I think some people are concentrating on the wrong things.

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:38 pm | Permalink

      As has been said by others, I think it is used here to make something you just don’t like seem worse, so you can claim the right to shut it down.

  19. Ken Kukec
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:48 pm | Permalink

    “pink washing” — I thought that’s what happens when a red t-shirt gets mixed in the machine with the whites.

    “I feel unsafe” is the shibboleth for removing anything a snowflake disagrees with.

    • Merilee
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 12:52 pm | Permalink

      Lol – I always thought it was a red SOCK. My dad once turned all his undies, t-shirts, and socks pink ( except the red ones) when my mother was away.

  20. Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:25 pm | Permalink

    The main reason I don’t respect the anti-Israeli part of the left is they are so uninformed about the complicated convoluted history of Israel. They are so ignorant of how things ended up where they are today.

    If you went back to the 1920s and applied the oppressor/oppressed dichotomy to determine which side was virtuous and which side was nefarious, you could easily reverse the sides of the current narrative.

    The other thing is the idea of Israeli Jews disbanding and going back to the home of their grandparents is completely unrealistic. You can’t undo history. After Israel formed, much of the growth in the Jewish population came from Jews in the Middle East and North Africa fleeing persecution by Arab Nationalists. The nationalists in many countries took out their anger over Israel’s formation by attacking their local Jews.

    Finally, the main sticking point in working out a peaceful agreement is that there aren’t enough Palestinians who want a peaceful solution. During the 90s there were attempts to move towards peace. In my opinion, the Jewish Israelis as a group showed much more willingness to work toward a realistic solution than the Palestinian side.

    It is easy to find bad behavior from either side. Israel is complicated and I’m no expert on it. I don’t think people who are so ignorant of Israel’s present situation and its recent past should have such strong opinions about it.

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 2:58 pm | Permalink

      A British Muslim once started explaining me that Israel should be disbanded and Jews should return to the European countries they came from. (Never mind that many of them were originally from Mideast countries.)

      I said that, as an European, I do not mind at all the Jews to return to Europe, but it is only fair then that Muslims should also return to their countries of origin. He was taken aback. Until that moment, it hadn’t occurred to him that he wanted the exile of people from a place they had inhabited for more than half a century, while considering other people firmly rooted after mere 5-10 years.

      • Diana MacPherson
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

        What if some of the Israeli Jews were from places like the US and Canada? Do they have to go back to Europe too? I wonder how they’d arrange that – DNA samples? People who come up with these ideas drive me nuts. I’ve had people tell me to “go back where you’re from” and that would be pretty hard given that both of my parents are from different British colonies (Canada and NZ) so they’ve had an ancestry that met a lot of people from other places. Furthermore, my European ancestors wandered around Europe breeding with everyone, including Neanderthals and there is some North African DNA in there too. Maybe they’d just pick what the majority of it is and throw a dart on a map. 😀

        • Brujo Feo
          Posted June 25, 2017 at 8:26 pm | Permalink

          DAMN, Diana MacPherson, you sound like you might be not only a mongrel (spelled “h-u-m-a-n”), but in fact one of those (cue Trumputo outrage) IMMIGRANTS!

          As far as I can tell, although fourth-gen in the U.S., I’m 100% Irish. But go back to Ireland, and what does THAT mean?

          I’d love to see a DNA test for every one of these idiots who like to preen about their racial purity. As if that even means anything.

          • Diana MacPherson
            Posted June 25, 2017 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

            You could have some Scandinavian in there. My closest ancestors are Irish and English. My genetics are mostly “British Isles”. I had my DNA analyzed at 23 and Me.

            • Brujo Feo
              Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:04 pm | Permalink

              My patrilineal family name (Geoghegan) allegedly traces back to King Niall of the Nine Hostages, but we all now how that is–as Shirley MacLaine would no doubt tell us, no one was a peasant or a common criminal in a past life.

              And of course, matrilineage is effectively masked. So perhaps a DNA test might be instructive at this point.

              • Brujo Feo
                Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:05 pm | Permalink

                Gack. “[k]now.”

            • BJ
              Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:25 pm | Permalink

              My brother got his graduate degree in library sciences (essentially the field of history research and archiving), and engaged in a years-long study and composition of our lineage. Turns out I’m descended (on my mother’s side) from Spanish royalty. One of my direct ancestors was the royal doctor to Kind Ferdinand and Queen Isabella. He even found our family crest, which had a crown at the top to symbolize royalty (I wonder if I can go to Spain and somehow make some money off of this…hmmmm…).

              Apparently, our good royal doctor was eventually beheaded. According to documentation from the time, this was apparently because he had an affair with Queen Isabella, resulting in a child.

              So yes, I am royalty. Bow before me! 😛

              • Diana MacPherson
                Posted June 25, 2017 at 11:04 pm | Permalink

                I’m French royalty. People think I’m pale from the Irish but it’s the French skin in my mom’s side. They all got the hell out of Dodge, er, Versailles during The Terror.

              • Martin Levin
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 2:46 am | Permalink

                Actually, perhaps we should all just go back to the Olduvai Gorge in Africa, though the Tanzanians may not be thrilled at the prospect of 7-billion mutts descending upon them.

              • BJ
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 7:43 am | Permalink

                Diana, do tell! It sounds like an intriguing story…

                Glad your ancestors got out in time, or you might not be here to contribute to this community today 🙂

              • Diana MacPherson
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 10:51 am | Permalink

                My mom’s side of the family originally had the name La Tonge (I may have spelled it wrong). They dropped the “la” and just had Tonge (sp?). They were the French. I think they fled to England and eventually that line of people went to NZ & stayed there for 6 generations or so, meeting others from other parts of Europe and the occasional Maori; like many of the older families in NZ, there is usually some Maori but it likely is so small that it didn’t register in my DNA or maybe it never happened (you just can’t tell with family history).

                My German side of my mom’s family left Germany after WWI. This was a good decision because that part of the family was Jewish. They ended up in NZ too. My family has a long history of getting out at the right time. 🙂

              • BJ
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 8:03 pm | Permalink

                Clearly, you come from a long line of smart people who can think ahead!

              • Posted July 1, 2017 at 8:20 am | Permalink

                «(I wonder if I can go to Spain and somehow make some money off of this…hmmmm…)»

                You’re far more likely to be able to make some money off of it in a place like the US which, for some reason, is fascinated by nobility and royalty even though they fought a revolution/war fought a war to get rid of stuff like this. In Europe, especially in countries that still are monarchies, you find people descending from royalty in every town, and family crests on every street corner.

        • rickflick
          Posted June 25, 2017 at 8:40 pm | Permalink

          There’s probably a 30,000 year old cave somewhere in Southern France with a painting of a mastodon you could take refuge in. You might even meet people who come up with these ideas right there with you. 😎

          • Diana MacPherson
            Posted June 25, 2017 at 9:50 pm | Permalink

            Hands off my cave paintings!

            • Michael Waterhouse
              Posted June 26, 2017 at 5:46 am | Permalink

              My mothers maiden name is Servante, allegedly, possibly, relating to the writer Cervantes.
              Therefore I am related to Don Quixote.
              I am also tall and skinny.

              • Merilee
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 10:39 am | Permalink

                How quixotic😁

              • Diana MacPherson
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 6:31 pm | Permalink

                I had an 18th C English Lit prof who pronounced Quixote as kicks oat. It took me a while to realize what he was saying.

              • Merilee
                Posted June 26, 2017 at 7:37 pm | Permalink

                Kicks oat – lol. Maybe he was kickin’ it while sowing his wild oats?

          • Diane G.
            Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:27 pm | Permalink

            “You might even meet people who come up with these ideas right there with you. 😎”

            Nice one! 😀

    • BJ
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 3:03 pm | Permalink

      “Finally, the main sticking point in working out a peaceful agreement is that there aren’t enough Palestinians who want a peaceful solution. During the 90s there were attempts to move towards peace. In my opinion, the Jewish Israelis as a group showed much more willingness to work toward a realistic solution than the Palestinian side.”

      This is key. How do you negotiate peace with a country full of people who actively support terrorists groups and are willing to say out loud that they believe it is their duty to kill every Jew and abolish your country for good?

  21. infiniteimprobabilit
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 3:05 pm | Permalink

    I usually tend to side with Palestinians BUT – what the hell has a Gay Pride parade got to do with Zionism or Palestine?

    They were gay Jews. Nothing wrong with the flag. Any more than a flag identifying gay construction workers or gay Republicans* would have been.

    (*Or make up your own example).

    And I most thoroughly agree all this ‘triggering’ and ‘unsafe’ is childish BS.

    cr

    • Posted June 26, 2017 at 1:12 pm | Permalink

      There have been some in some Pride parades who have parsed “X Pride” as “pride of X”, rather than pro-(whatever sexual terms you want) who happen to be X. Perhaps this is the problem.

  22. BJ
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 3:07 pm | Permalink

    I would love to be able to say that this incident surprises me, but it doesn’t in the least. Even when I was in college at a very far-left school a decade ago, Jewish students were regularly treated as if they had original sin. Their campus groups were regularly interrupted or protested against, their meeting building defaced several times, etc. etc. Things have gotten far, far worse for Jews on the left since then.

    It’s particularly baffling because not only have Jews been perhaps the most historically oppressed group throughout the last 2,000 or so years, but because Jews in the US have always been an enormous part of the movements for the civil rights of others (the civil rights movement of the 50’s/60’s, the gay rights movement, etc.).

    • Diane G.
      Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:32 pm | Permalink

      Yes, the truth of the latter part of your last sentence has always made me so sad…I often wonder why any Jews are still liberals; but of course, despite all, they have a proud track record of support for progressive/humanist goals.

  23. Taz
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 4:02 pm | Permalink

    “I feel unsafe” is the excuse underlying a lot of anti-gay bigotry.

    • somer
      Posted June 26, 2017 at 4:59 am | Permalink

      So true! Homophobes likewise look for excuses to turn to violence against gays citing they feel threatened by anything that even reminds them of gays. And yet many gays today identify with Islam and ask for “safe spaces” for Muslims in western countries.
      [Gay African American] Activist advocates for “Muslim safe spaces”.

      [DELETE BREAK]
      /status/873346438788517889
      I don’t follow Tucker Carlson but sourced this original through retweet on another site

  24. Stephen Frost
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

    The actions taken here were unambiguously anti-Semitic and it is disgusting and inexcusable. However, I think you go a step too far in suggesting anyone who is anti-Israel or anti-Zionist is therefore anti-Semitic, since most of the Jews I’ve known have been anti-Israel, anti-Zionist and pro-Palestine. Me? I think they’re both as bad as each other and stay well out of it. But my Jewish friends are anti-Semitic for disagreeing with you? Come on; that isn’t a rational viewpoint – that’s as bad as the regressive left itself.

    • Posted June 25, 2017 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

      I don’t think I said anyone who is anti ISRAEL is anti-Semitic, but that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitic. Didn’t you read the post? Being anti-Zionism means you either don’t think Israel should exist or was opposed to its establishment as a home for refugee Jews.
      As for your statement that I’m irrational and like the Regressive Leftists, apologize, and mean it. or you’re gone. Did you not read the posting rules before rushing over here to make your first post

      • Stephen Frost
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 5:59 pm | Permalink

        On the contrary, you said;
        “the reason the flagbearers were asked to leave is because Israel is demonized as an “apartheid state” by many on the Ctrl-Left. But that’s just a cover for the anti-Semitism implicit.”

        This is fundamentally untrue and irrational.

        No, I didn’t read the rules for some random WordPress blog before calling you out. Nor do I care if “I’m gone” from it. I think you overestimate your own importance. But if your response to legitimate criticism is demand an insincere apology to appease your butthurt lest rational discourse result in the ban-hammer, you’re only further proving my point and making me give even less of a shit about being banned from your silly little blog. Toodles.

        • Posted June 25, 2017 at 6:08 pm | Permalink

          LOL! You left out an important part of the quote, which you deceptively end with a period. Here’s the full quote:

          . . .the reason the flagbearers were asked to leave is because Israel is demonized as an “apartheid state” by many on the Ctrl-Left. But that’s just a cover for the anti-Semitism implicit (and explicit) in “anti-Zionism”.

          What a ridiculous distortion! You don’t deserve to be here among honest and rational people. Don’t let the door hit your tuchas on the way out.

          • BJ
            Posted June 25, 2017 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

            Good on you for getting some Yiddish in there, just for good measure 🙂

          • rickflick
            Posted June 25, 2017 at 7:44 pm | Permalink

            Ha!

      • Mackster
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

        I simply don’t follow the logic that anti-Zionist is anti-semitic but anti-Israel is not anti-semitic. There has been a long-standing and intense debate within the Jewish community itself regarding the aims and methods of Zionism. Ironically, many of the strongest supporters of Zionism have been decidedly anti-semitic while many of the strongest opponents of Zionism have been fervent supporters of Judaism. My view is that Zionism embraces the worst of ethnocentric settler colonialism and misguided religious zealotry which led to the ethnic cleansing and military subjugation of an indigenous population. One could say the same about the path to the creation of the United States if there had been an organized movement behind its creation in the roughly 200 years prior to its founding.

    • fizziks
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 7:16 pm | Permalink

      A yes, the old “It is possible to be anti-Zionist but not antisemitic” line.

      Whether it is or is not theoretically possible, I have never seen it in real life.

      Face it: Antizionism, if it actually is allowed to happen, means that Israel ceases to exist as a Jewish majority state and becomes an Arab-Muslim majority state. The Jews then face the same fate as every other ethnic and religious minority in the Middle East, and in fact the fate that the Jews themselves faced in living memory in every other Middle Eastern country: genocide and ethnic cleansing.

      So anyone who is anti-Zionist is advocating an outcome that will invariably lead to the genocide and ethnic cleansing of 6.5 million Jews. If that isn’t antisemitic, I don’t know what is.

      • BJ
        Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

        Very much +1! I’ve never seen the point made so well.

      • somer
        Posted June 26, 2017 at 5:54 am | Permalink

        Exactly – a history of oppression even outside the Middle east is why Jews are so resourceful and they are not a naturally expansionist religion unlike the other Abrahamic faiths. I constantly come across the trope that anti-zionism is not anti-semitism.

        And Islam doesnt like Jews to start with. There are endless horrible Memri clips of clerics saying abominable things about Jews – often backed with scriptures. And then theres the fondness for Mein Kampf throughout the middle east. Muslims believe a mahdi or “divinely guided one” Jesus (Isa) in Sunni islam and a descendant of the Prophet for shias – will return at the end of days – he will restore justice and piousness to earth, And then the Last Judgement will occur Britannica online encyclopedia, Eschatology and Mahdi sections
        What britannica doesnt say is that just before the Day of Judgement, we are informed by various sahih hadith say e.g. Narrated in
        Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177
        Allah’s Apostle said, “The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. “O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.” Also Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985

      • Posted June 26, 2017 at 1:21 pm | Permalink

        I have no problem with Israel (except the problems which apply to states in general) but have a problem with a state labeled *in any way* with the religious or ethnic or whatever category of its citizens, except in so far as this applies purely as a citizenship name. For example, suppose Norway were to announce it was going to be a “Christian state”, or a “Viking state”. To me these sound as exclusionary as Israel claiming to be a “Jewish state”, especially as there are large numbers of people who live there who are *not* in the category.

        I have held this principle since I was a kid in Quebec. I have no problems with any Quebecers using any language they wish. I have a problem with Quebec being labeled (rather than described) as francophone.

        • BJ
          Posted June 26, 2017 at 8:07 pm | Permalink

          Israel claims to be a “Jewish state” in the sense that it can be a homeland for Jews, who need one because historically and still today they continue to face hatred, discrimination, and violence to varying degrees in all parts of the world. It still has citizens who are Christian and Muslim. Unlike, say, most Islamic states, it does not force the religion or its dictates upon the citizens.

          • Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:26 am | Permalink

            So suppose Norway were to advertise itself as a Christian state where all the Christians could go and feel safe from discrimination, etc.?

            As for force, yes, it is better than the Islamic states that way, but that’s a low bar – and even if it were perfect, the *mere labeling* is exclusionary.

            I remember asking my American colleagues at CMU why the US didn’t have an official language or languages. This is similar, though OLs are more justified for practical reasons. There’s no *practical* reason to have an “official ethnicity” or the like that I can see.

            • Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:31 am | Permalink

              That reminds me, Arabic as well as Hebrew is an official language of the State of Israel.

              • Posted June 28, 2017 at 11:32 am | Permalink

                Yes, it is. And that’s a good thing. However, the point was the analogy. Suppose the Knesset passed a law that removed this and said additionally that Hebrew was to be the only language, because Israel is a “Jewish state”? (One doesn’t even need the motivation.) Notice that having no such language at all might actually work better than the “one” – exactly like in the US.

                This is exactly parallel to the attempts in Quebec to make French and French only official (even using in my view crazy parts of the constitution to do so).

                I’m a “regulations to make commerce work” guy, and I find (for example) the Bill 101/178 provisions in Quebec for businesses to be more or less bigoted – and so did the Supreme Court, but the Canadian Constitution has a not-widthstanding clause …

              • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:20 pm | Permalink

                You deal in antisemitic “suppose if”, while I deal in reality.

            • Diane G.
              Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:44 pm | Permalink

              Your analogy would be more successful had there ever been a pogrom against Norwegians.

              • Posted June 28, 2017 at 11:28 am | Permalink

                But note that’s not the analogy: the analogy to *Christianity*. If violence-against is the criterion, almost every religion applies. The “cultural” aspect is a potential confound, of course, but even Dawkins says “cultural Christian” sometimes about himself.

                Or Buddhism – the same would apply if Norway were to declare itself a Buddhist state, or South Korea a Scientologist state, etc.

                Put another way: does being subject to oppression allow “escape” from oppression of others? I encountered that as a kid too – “anglos oppressed us francophones, so we can do it in reverse”. No thanks, but I can see why it might be attractive.

        • Posted June 27, 2017 at 10:12 am | Permalink

          I guess it suits you, then, that England broke Hindustan up and changed the name of what was left of it. That happened a year before Israel’s modern-nationhood. They did this, though, in deference to Muslims who moved in, multiplied, and then demanded carve outs of “their” parts of Hindustan, creating Pakistan, etc. Somehow it just doesn’t feel fair to me. (Okay, maybe the Brits didn’t rename Nindustan, but the name change did seem timed with their colonial “intersectionalism”, if I may abuse the term.)

          • Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:23 am | Permalink

            Yes, I would have a problem with a state named Hindustan, for the same reason, and all the -stans.

            • Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:27 am | Permalink

              And I think a nation of citizens has the right and privilege to decide its own name, values, and rules, assuming everyone gets a fair say. You know: Like in Israel.

      • Diane G.
        Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:48 pm | Permalink

        Yes, brilliantly succinct and right on the mark!

  25. rickflick
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 5:20 pm | Permalink

    I fully agree. And you can see where this sudden change of face come from. The leaders of movements like Pride tend to read too much regressive literature.

    • BJ
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 10:26 pm | Permalink

      Just like regressives try to co-opt/try to take over every other subculture and group.

  26. Al
    Posted June 25, 2017 at 6:10 pm | Permalink

    Sounds like gay Muslims ,both prohibited by their scriptures both to be executed in public ,but Jews don’t follow their scriptures Muslims behead or throw gays from a building .

  27. Posted June 25, 2017 at 7:23 pm | Permalink

    Alt-Right? Ctrl-Left? All we need is a Del- faction and the Universe will reboot and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable.

    • Mark Joseph
      Posted June 25, 2017 at 8:29 pm | Permalink

      Aren’t there some who say that this has already happened?

    • Diane G.
      Posted June 27, 2017 at 11:50 pm | Permalink

      If only it all could be replaced by a Fn-al rhetoric. Till then I only wish I could Esc.

  28. Posted June 26, 2017 at 7:59 am | Permalink

    Reblogged this on The Logical Place.

  29. Posted June 27, 2017 at 5:53 pm | Permalink

    A dissenting view from a Jewish group that was at the dyke march.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VG2cPkufLCFVSv4DmvRbOSQnzMdUt7so8AlrQHcXSyA/pub

  30. Malgorzata
    Posted June 28, 2017 at 12:42 am | Permalink

    When subject of an article is too inconvenient, like in this case of blatant antisemitism emanating from the Left, somebody will come with the old trick of distracting from the subject and start a discussion about Israel. A few smears, a few slurs and presto! People are defending Israel instead of condemning racism and antisemitism (which, of course, gives the tricksters an opportunity to repeat a few more slanders). In this discussion Keith Douglas and Mackster have shown that they really mastered the trick. And I fell for it. I should be ashamed.

    • Mackster
      Posted June 28, 2017 at 10:45 am | Permalink

      I’d suggest that you go back and actually read the posts in the sequence that they were posted before labeling others as “tricksters” engaging in smears, slurs, and slanders.
      My initial response was to the original article and indicated that “…banning this group was liberal political correctness BS.” I then indicated that I didn’t understand “…the need/desire to insert religion into the support of LBGTQ rights.”
      I then posted in support of ‘Neandertalhead’ who indicated that “…it’s false to equate criticism of Israel and anti-semitism” although I disagreed with his use of the “racist” label applied to Israel’s policies towards the Palestinians. That post also responded to ‘BobTerrace’ who justified Israel’s policies against the Palestinians because they are against people “sworn to eliminate them”. I pointed out that Zionism “sought the elimination of the indigenous Palestinian population” but also noted that this doesn’t “excuse the radical Palestinians…whose murderous policies are not to be tolerated”. That apparently brouight out a barrage from the ‘Israel has never done anything wrong and even if it did it was justified and besides the Arabs did even worse things’ adherents–including yourself. I agree. You should be ashamed.
      That said, I have no desire to convince rabid defenders of all things Israel that there is a great deal of valid historical criticism surrounding Zionism and Israel’s continued subjugation of the Palestinian people. These are people who for whatever reasons, political, religious, cultural, etc. are so deeply invested in Israel’s perfection that they will never allow objective examination to intrude on their beliefs. I’m not interested in wasting my time on any continued exchange.

      • Malgorzata
        Posted June 28, 2017 at 10:57 am | Permalink

        No, I’m not interested in further exchange either. It’s very convenient to accuse me and everybody who is showing the facts and Arab (previously Sovjet) propaganda against Israel for accepting everything Israel does. Of course, you wouldn’t believe that there are policies by different Israeli governments I’m deeply critical to, as I’m deeply critical to some policies by different Polish governments. However I really dislike false propaganda repeated time and again so now some believe it is the truth. Unfortunately, Goebbels was right: Repeat the lie a thousand times and it will become the truth. And I’m definitely not ashamed for adhering to facts.

      • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:18 pm | Permalink

        It appears you just called Malgorzata and myself “rabid defenders of Israel.”

        Have YOU read Da Roolz?

    • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

      Malgorzata, you should not be ashamed. You should be proud of yourself, as I am of you, for being able to argue with facts, real facts from history, to counter the ugly propaganda which is so instrumental in today’s modern version of antisemitism.

      And, on that note, I would add to your point about ethnic cleansing this episode at the U.N. To all countries of north Africa and the Middle East, as Hillel Neuer demands to know, “Where are YOUR Jews?”

      • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:11 pm | Permalink

        Apologies for embedding video and not just link to video.

      • Malgorzata
        Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:26 pm | Permalink

        Thank you,docatheist. I still can’t accept that Goebbels was right, that a lie repeated 1000 times becomes the truth. That’s why I’m trying to debunk the web of lies, concocted first by Arab armies 1948 and enhanced later by the special KGB’s Disisnformation Department. Unfortunately, the lies are now so embedded that the truth is very difficult to be believed, no matter how many documents you present, especially that the lies tally so nicely with already held prejudices. So it is just to repeat the truth many, many times. Maybe something will come through. And thanks for the video. I know it, I also made Polish subtitles because I’m trying to fight the same lies which are also disseminated in Poland.

        • Posted July 1, 2017 at 1:30 pm | Permalink

          For the record, Malgorzata, I wish I had even half your ability to debunk the antisemitic lies. You do a great service, and I admire you greatly for it.

  31. Posted July 5, 2017 at 3:47 am | Permalink

    Deeply wrong move.


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