Shooting spree at Munich mall

CNN News gives some sketchy information about a shooting spree in a mall in Munich, Germany.  It occurred at 6 p.m. Munich time, or about an hour ago. It’s also reported to be over.  There’s no other information right now.


  1. Posted July 22, 2016 at 12:50 pm | Permalink

    There appears to be multiple shooters in different areas of Munich.

  2. Chris
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:03 pm | Permalink

    A quick overview in English is available via BBC at

    • Eric Grobler
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:16 pm | Permalink

      I visit Germany on a regular basis.

      Recently after the attack in Brussels a German told me that ISIS will not target Germany.
      When I asked why he replied: “the holocaust”

      • Kevin
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

        I can not deny that made me laugh but also be reminded of the sickened condition that religion poisons people with the idea of admiration for hatred towards ‘others’.

        I have yet to meet a German who is remotely sympathetic to anything associated with the holocaust; maybe I am too young.

      • gravelinspector-Aidan
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 6:56 pm | Permalink

        There is, TTBOMK, no HTML mark up for “to be spoken in a cod German accent, with frequent reference to Basil Fawlty not mentioning The War”. But absent that markup, please put the appropriate sound effects in below.
        “I tink zat dis guy, he was like, making a joke, like funny ha-ha? Ja?”
        Of course, it doesn’t work. The ISIS attack/ no-attack criterion is not “did your grandparents kill millions of Jews?” ; it’s “are you currently a fully-compliant member of our particular religious sect?”. If the answer to the question is “yes”, you don’t get attacked (yet), otherwise you do.

      • somer
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 9:54 pm | Permalink

        These attacks will encourage the far right in Germany which advocate at the least, complete cultural segregation, including racial segregation, and separating german women from foreigners supposedly to keep them “safe”, imagining that every foreigner is a sexual threat EG.

        makes the religious happy because in the extreme case it would be a reversion to hard line Christianity to preserve distinctness. Makes the left happy because they can feel morally superior

  3. Cindy
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:09 pm | Permalink


  4. CFM
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:24 pm | Permalink

    I live in Munich and local police warns everybody to stay at home and especially to stay away from public places.

    The perpetrators, it is assumed there are three of them, are still at large and their whereabouts are unknown.

    Public transport has been shut down completely, the main station has been evacuated. On a Friday evening, this means many people are stranded. The police is apparently trying to clear the streets in the inner city.

    But reports of another shooting near Karlsplatz were a false alarm. There are reports of a third shooting at the Isartor, but they have not been confirmed.

    At the moment, six people are reported to be dead, more wounded. The mall must have been packed with people, especially families, at the time of the shooting.

    Oh damn, I have often been to the mall in question with my two little girls. And my parents live near Würzburg. I guess we all know it could happen everywhere and anytime, but still..

    • darrelle
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:49 pm | Permalink

      Thank you for the update. Be safe!

    • compuholio
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 3:04 pm | Permalink

      I am also from Munich and have shopped there many times. Luckily I live and work outside of the city so I am not stranded in this chaos.

      I guess we all knew it was just a matter of time that some terror attack (which at the moment seems to me the most likely explanation) would hit close to home.

      Now, I can only hope that most people will keep their cool but I am not very hopeful. The right-wing nut-jobs will of course exploit this for political gain and the political climate is currently not that great anyways.

    • Jonathan Wallace
      Posted July 23, 2016 at 2:40 am | Permalink

      One positive reflection on human nature to come out of this has been the widespread ‘open door’ response of Munich residents – offering refuge in their homes to people stranded in the city centre.

  5. Cindy
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:30 pm | Permalink


    Nice attacker ‘plotted for months and had accomplices’

    Prosecutor says five suspects are facing preliminary terror charges for alleged roles in helping Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel

  6. Tom Czarny
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 1:43 pm | Permalink

    Fear. Fear of events like this, fear of the Other, fear of the world at large. Not to minimize nor politicize the awfulness of this ongoing situation, but fear is the ace in Trump’s hand which he will play to its full advantage.

  7. Eric Grobler
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    This might even be a neo-nazi attack. Very little information at this point.

    • jay
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 2:35 pm | Permalink

      Considering the victims, probably not. Neo Nazis tend to target specific groups.

    • mordacious1
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 2:48 pm | Permalink

      Nazis don’t yell “Allahu Akbar”, AFAIK.

      • mordacious1
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 3:15 pm | Permalink

        There was a muslim woman witness who stated that she heard him yell “Allahu Akbar”, but that’s only one witness, of course. MSNBC is speculating that, because he’s wearing boots and a beret, that he may be a neo-Nazi. They’re reporting that someone stated he said, “Damn foreigners”. I guess we’re going to have to wait. Perhaps a neo-Nazi muslim.

      • CFM
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 3:24 pm | Permalink

        Eric Grobler is right, we just do not know. At least two eyewitnesses on German TV speak of blonde perpetrators who shouted “Damn foreigners”…

      • Eric Grobler
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

        Nazis don’t yell “Allahu Akbar”, AFAIK.

        If Hitler is God I do not see a problem.

    • Eric Grobler
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:26 pm | Permalink

      It is now 6 hours after the attack and it is still so confusing.
      It does not feel like a typical Islamic attack nor a Neo Nazi operation.

      One would expect Nazis to target a Mosque or Halal butcher or a group of Muslims.
      Typically ISIS terrorists do not flee the seen of the crime, they would rather die a glorious jihadi death and reap the supposedly rewards.

      Perhaps this is only one insane gunman?

      Does anybody else have more information?

      • Cindy
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:28 pm | Permalink

        • Eric Grobler
          Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:42 pm | Permalink

          It means “it does not look like a Nazi”?

          You think it is a genuine photo from the incident? It does not look like the gunman on the roof.

          • mordacious1
            Posted July 22, 2016 at 6:53 pm | Permalink

            Yeah, I saw picture before and it looks like he’s wearing Adidas, the shooter was wearing some sort of mid-calf black boots.

  8. jay
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 2:33 pm | Permalink

    Someone pointed out that this is very close to the site of the Olympics terrorist attacks years ago.


    • gravelinspector-Aidan
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 7:51 pm | Permalink


      Well, given that the Olympic stadium is in the city itself, the it would be hard to have any event in Munich which wasn’t fairly close to the events of 1972. Well, not much more than 3 km.

    • somer
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 8:53 pm | Permalink

      Ten people confirmed dead at this stage. Shooter was Iranian German.

      “The shopping centre is next to the Munich Olympic stadium, where the Palestinian militant group Black September took 11 Israeli athletes hostage and eventually killed them during the 1972 Olympic Games.”

  9. jay
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 2:59 pm | Permalink

    Meanwhile, not making this up, after the recent train attack, there are calls for compulsory Islam classes in German schools. What’s in the drinking water over there?

    • compuholio
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 3:18 pm | Permalink

      It is actually a sane proposal. Religious education is a subject at any school. There are usually classes specific to a denomination (usually Catholic and Protestant) or an Ethics class for students who don’t want to participate in those.

      I am from Munich, grew up Catholic – as most people here – and took the corresponding classes. Even denomination specific classes are secular in nature. It is basically a comparative religion class mixed with ethics and a special focus on the foundations and history of your denomination.

      The key point here is, that all teachers for such classes (or any other subject) are government employees which have a university education in religious studies and a specialty in education. Also they have to follow a special curriculum. So the idea is probably to counter extremist ideas and it might actually work.

      • Eric Grobler
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 4:59 pm | Permalink

        It is actually a sane proposal.
        Are you sure, it will be very difficult to approach the subject objectively.

        Will the text book read:
        “Muhammad married Aisha at 6 and consummated the marriage at 9”?

        “Teacher, what does consummated at 9 mean”?

        • infiniteimprobabilit
          Posted July 22, 2016 at 6:19 pm | Permalink

          They can always just leave that bit out.

          Like our Bible classes used to leave out the exact physical implications of the ‘virgin’ Mary thing.


          • somer
            Posted July 22, 2016 at 9:01 pm | Permalink

            So you get a “nice” version that isn’t the “real” version

            • infiniteimprobabilit
              Posted July 22, 2016 at 9:32 pm | Permalink

              Well, that’s inevitable, whatever holy book / religion you’re considering. Firstly, they’ve *all* got bits in them that are unsuitable for juveniles. And secondly, they’re never going to get the ‘real’ (full, unexpurgated) version anyway because that would be impossibly long and complicated. You wouldn’t want to. All you’d give the kids is an abbreviated summary of the outlines of the belief.


              • somer
                Posted July 22, 2016 at 9:48 pm | Permalink

                except that
                *a considerably greater proportion of the Quran and hadiths are this sort of stuff than even the old testament
                * the Quran is considered an uncreated emanation of God who keeps copies in heaven – unchallengeable. The Bible is openly recognised as written by scribes and belonging to historical periods by Jews and Chrisitans alike. Yes you have your fundy evangelical Xstians and Jews but they are a fairly small minority and even some of them recognise historical and interpretable element in at least part of the scriptures.

                * The hard bits of the Quran and Hadith is still central to the teaching and people are not allowed to refute it. How many instances have we heard of Jews stoning anyone in last 100 years? Most practising Jews are liberal “reform” Jews and most jews are actually more liberal than most Christians

              • infiniteimprobabilit
                Posted July 23, 2016 at 1:41 am | Permalink

                So? The objection raised by Eric was how you explained to kiddies how Muhammad screwed a 9-year-old. I’m not aware that’s part of the Koran, but anyway you’d just leave it out. In exactly the same way as the sexual significance of Mary being a virgin, or Adam and Eve’s family committing incest, or rabbis munching foreskins, or Mormons’ magic underpants.

                I’m not offering an opinion on whether teaching comparative religion is a good idea, or which one is sillier, just pointing out that Eric’s objection is, to my mind, not a practical obstacle to the proposal.


              • somer
                Posted July 23, 2016 at 4:01 am | Permalink

                No, but like, for example the Quran does specify that one of the few legitimate ways a man can acquire a religiously permissible sexual partner is by acquiring a captured infidel concubine known as “servant of the right hand” i.e. slave captured in or after battle. Many Islamic organisations, such as the Muslim Brotherhood, have never renounced slavery as a valid part of the Quran.
                The Quran mandates lashings for married adulterers (that or life confinement in the home for a married a woman). According to All the Sunni schools anything unclear in the Quran can be clarified in Hadith. Moreover anything deemed occurring later in the Quran (and according to Principles of Islamic Jurisprudence by Mohammed Hashim Kamali pp 144-145) Sahih Hadiths from the Prophet judged later than something in Quran and same topic) are deemed more sound. Hence sahih Hadith Bukhari (6:60:79)mandating stoning for adultery is upheld over the Quranic Al Nur punishment of lashing because that hadith is considered to be later in Mohammed’s life.

                Mainstream orthodox Islam still very much takes these things seriously (though the Ottoman central govt did not stone people). The Quran is considered itself divine and it is considered in Sunni orthodoxy that its texts mandates reference to the Sunnah (the Hadiths)(in Principle of Islamic Jurisprudence) this means its a substantive difference from the other Abrahamic religions

    • somer
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 8:55 pm | Permalink

      Yes but they are doing it because we are not sensitive to Islam and Islamic culture

      • somer
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 8:56 pm | Permalink

        or not sensitive enough

  10. Posted July 22, 2016 at 3:31 pm | Permalink

    The right wing loony party AfD (German version of UKIP) is already using it to call for people to vote for them. These ignorami haven’t got the faintest idea how to deal with this kind of thing.

    • jay
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 4:30 pm | Permalink

      “These ignorami haven’t got the faintest idea how to deal with this kind of thing.”

      Well one way NOT to deal with this is to deny a problem exists. This is why Trump gets traction, because while the left holds their fingers in their ears and proclaims ‘everything’s just fine’, the world at large sees a different story. Even on this thread there are people worrying too much about how this will play out with Trump…. well he wouldn’t be getting traction except that people realize they are being lied to.

      After months of obfuscation, it came out that there were about 1200 sexual assaults by about 2000 assailants on New Years (compare this to the 1600 rapes over several years that were judged *war crimes* in the Bosnia conflict). The numbers were minimized in the news, the perpetrators were shielded (even as recently as a few weeks ago a German paper was giving only the first name and last initial of convicted attackers). At the same time we have idiots (including many in the US) exclaiming that if these people had jobs etc, this wouldn’t happen.

      The problem here is not race but it IS culture, it IS religion and it IS real. It’s always good to help people who need help but you must utilize due diligence. While we can cheer that nations like Germany, Denmark, Sweden have become more secular, more open, do not believe that bringing huge numbers of people totally opposed to the principles of secular liberal government and living in a dark ages mindset will not have some bad effects.

      It’s great to help homeless people in your town, but it’s foolish to bring them into your home and put your family at risk. And if your mayor declares that, based on the number of rooms in your house, you will be required to put up so many homeless… you might plan your own ‘brexit’.

      • Eric Grobler
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:05 pm | Permalink

        Well one way NOT to deal with this is to deny a problem exists.

        Exactly. One could argue that the inability to call a spade a spade by the left created Trump.

        • Cindy
          Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:08 pm | Permalink

          “Let’s not talk about it because it will empower right wingers” is *exactly* what I would do if I wanted to empower right wingers…

          • somer
            Posted July 22, 2016 at 9:02 pm | Permalink


    • jay
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 4:33 pm | Permalink

      Interestingly about a year or so ago when Obama was first promoting bringing in Syrian refugees, a local paper interviewed a number of people including the owner of a Syrian restaurant. He was opposed to the idea of unvetted immigration… this is the culture he was fleeing when he immigrated to the US.

      • mikeyc
        Posted July 22, 2016 at 4:54 pm | Permalink

        “He was opposed to the idea of unveiled immigration….”

        So is the Obama administration and the U.S. Government. It is a common trope of enemies of the Obama administration that the U.S. doesn’t vet refugees. This is categorically false.

        The average wait time for Syrian refugees before they are allowed to come hear is two years. Those two years are spent with eight phases of screening including collecting all identity documents and biodata. They must give iris scans and finger prints, background checks and screening are done by the FBI, NCC/IC, DHS and State. They are also screened for medical issues and applicants must complete cultural orientation classes. As it can take an average of two years to complete, all of these steps are done recurrently as well.

        • Posted July 22, 2016 at 10:19 pm | Permalink

          The way Western governments treated Syrian war refugees will go as one of the lowest moments of the West in the annals of history.

          Eugenic ideas and policies of the early 20th century are on the rise, this time under the cover of “culture” and “security”.

          The atheist and skeptic community has a moral responsibility to stand up to these falsehoods disseminated by a group of media pundits and some self-proclaimed social “scientists”. This is way more important than worrying about Islam or a few sick individuals who identify themselves with and act out based on the latest violent ideology in town!

    • Eric Grobler
      Posted July 22, 2016 at 5:03 pm | Permalink

      German version of UKIP

      I think Labor under Corbyn is more loony than UKIP.

      These ignorami haven’t got the faintest idea how to deal with this kind of thing.

      Who does?

      • Posted July 23, 2016 at 6:14 am | Permalink

        Re Labour under Corbyn — that may well be the case.

        Re– how to deal with the problem — yes I realize I was stating the obvious for readers here. But in case any of the above commenters didn’t realize, I did not deny that the problem exists.

    • Bethlenfalvy
      Posted July 24, 2016 at 7:41 am | Permalink

      Which parts of their programme makes you believe that AfD is a “right wing loony party”?

      As for the comparison with UKIP: Gathering from statements after Brexit no leading AfD politician calls for Germany to leave the EU (the only exception is B. Hoecke who wants a referendum on UK pattern).

      The party advocates a reform of the EU, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

  11. charlize
    Posted July 22, 2016 at 11:53 pm | Permalink

    From CNN:

    A witness who wanted to be identified only by her first name, Lauretta, said she heard the gunman say, “Allahu Akbar,” or “God is great” in Arabic.

  12. somer
    Posted July 23, 2016 at 6:58 am | Permalink

    At this point it looks like it had no political motivation and that the shooter was mentally ill or a psychopath turned on by mass shootings but not politically involved

    • charlize
      Posted July 23, 2016 at 7:55 pm | Permalink

      Yes, a narrative much preferred by and to the great relief of Merkel and her minions and one the Guardian can be expected to just be chomping at the bit to trot out.

      And, given the German’s mainstream media’s rock solid track record of whitewashing/suppressing “refugee” and Muslim association with crime in the country, one that we perhaps should not just comfortably sit back and blindly swallow whole.

      • somer
        Posted July 24, 2016 at 3:23 am | Permalink

        Its also on reuters

        If political links had been found by police or indicated about him by those close to him Id say its terrorism – but there were none and he has had psychiatric treatment in the past. This wasn’t the profile of killers in the other killings this year. Already Mehdi Hassan of Al Jazeera is complaining that only non terrorists are called mentally ill – I assume in his opinion some terrorists are mentally ill – the point is which he misses is terrorism is political killing so absence of link to a political cause is the clinching factor. Of course its usually the opposite of Mehdi’s whine. The regressive parts of the left reflexively attribute actual terrorist attacks – if they take place in the west – either to mental illness or supposedly legitimate extreme disaffection from the west.

        I think actually most of the Muslim people coming to Europe in past few years are refugees – some from North Africa are economic migrants but ones departing from Eastern mediterranean are not. To my mind the point is that according to the UN there are supposed to be 65 million refugees -almost all muslims and the UN of course thinks the West as a whole should take them all. The exodus is by far the most part caused by their own sectarian intolerance in all cases except the Rohingyas – a relatively tiny contingent – and they would have far more negative influence on us in the longer term than positive influence we would have on them. Some of them of course would be fairly liberal oriented and skilled for western society work, and/or speak the relevant language. The vast majority would not. Westerners are not dumb enough to completely destroy their more or less secular and liberal humanist culture, or their relative prosperity or their security. They can take some but only what they deem wise for the time and by a system of their own control not someone trying to bust them in. And apparently in Turkey they were being bussed by the authorities to the seaports to be taken to Europe.

      • Bethlenfalvy
        Posted July 24, 2016 at 8:00 am | Permalink

        “given the German’s mainstream media’s rock solid track record of whitewashing/suppressing […] Muslim association with crime in the country”

        The witness “Lauretta” (presented by CNN and other Anglophone media) who heard the gunman say “Allahu akbar” wasn’t even mentioned on German public TV on Friday night.

        Instead, the idea of a Neo Nazi attack and the Breivik anniversary were repeatedly ventilated.

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