The Irish vote down abortion to save a mother’s life

Well, after the Savita Halappanavar affair, in which a woman in Ireland was allowed to die rather than abort her miscarried fetus, you’d think some action would be taken. Even if the whole abortion issue in Catholic Ireland needs a full airing in the legislature, at least they can allow abortions where the mother’s life is in danger. That’s nothing that needs debate: is it better to let a mother and her fetus die rather than just the non-sentient fetus?
Indeed, those kinds of abortions are required for EU members. Nevertheless, the Irish have just voted down a bill that would permit only those types of abortions. And they voted it down by a substantial margin.  As The Journal.ie reports:
AN ABORTION BILL put forward by Deputy Clare Daly has been voted down by 101 votes to 27 in the Dáil this evening.
The bill was for legislating for the X Case, and the full details of the bill can be accessed by clicking here.

It would have provided an interim legislative arrangement as required by the Council of Europe, for termination of pregnancy where as a matter of probability a real and substantial risk to the life of the pregnant woman exists.

It also would have made provision for the prevention of any curtailment, hindrance or preclusion of such treatment that may arise as a result of the pregnancy of the woman.

As explained here, the “X case” occurred 20 years ago, when a 14-year-old girl was raped, became pregnant and then suicidal, but an Irish judge ruled that despite the risks she had to remain pregnant. She ultimately travelled to the UK for an abortion, but miscarried before that.
Abortion is still illegal in Ireland, and the law is sufficiently hazy that even in cases where the mother’s life is in danger, doctors are hesitant to act lest they be found guilty of violating EU dictates. That’s why Savita died.  This bill was a no-brainer, but the cowardly Irish legislature wouldn’t even pass this stopgap legislation because  a. they’re awaiting “discussion” of a commission report about the issue (report here), and b. because the legislation was introduced by a woman who is not a member of the ruling party (she’s an Independent), and passing such legislation isn’t often done in Ireland.
And she’s not the only case: here’s a report on a related case in 2010 in which a pregnant Irish woman with cancer, Michelle Harte, had to travel to UK for an abortion before she could get treatment for cancer, for that treatment could endanger the fetus!. As the Irish Times reports, by the time she got permission to leave for the abortion, it was too late, and she died:

Her condition worsened significantly during this time and she was not able to receive cancer treatment because she was pregnant. She eventually travelled to Britain for an abortion; she had to be helped on to the aircraft due to a deterioration in her condition.

Mr Boylan of Augustus Cullen Law then sued the State on her behalf for infringing her rights under the ABC case, in which the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Ireland had breached the human rights of a woman with cancer who had to travel abroad to get an abortion.

In that case, the woman – “C” – had a rare form of cancer and feared it would relapse when she became unintentionally pregnant. However, the woman said she was unable to find a doctor willing to make a determination as to whether her life would be at risk if she continued to term.

Ms Harte’s lawyers served a statement of claim in May 2011 against the HSE, Ireland and the Attorney General. It was settled by July 2011. Mr Boylan declined to specify the amount but said it was substantial. Ms Harte died that November.

This is ridiculous: while the legislature, and hence Irish doctors, waffle about the ethics of abortion when the mother’s life is in danger (whether that danger be physical or, in the “X” case, mental), women continue to die. What’s right is right, and this defeat is an embarrassment for the Irish government.

Most of the Irish public favor some form of abortion on demand, but if the government can’t even resolve such a simple ethical (an issue that the EU demands be resolved), it looks as if abortion will remain illegal in Ireland.

Such is the power of the Catholic Church in Ireland, which of course opposes any such legislation, as well as of the ruling party, which doesn’t want to pass anything not approved by their own legislators. They have no idea what it means for someone to die while they equivocate. Every woman who dies in these situations has friends and family who love her; and even one such death is too many. I wish those legislators could put themselves in the place of these women, something they seem unable to do.

h/t: Grania Spingies

76 Comments

  1. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:02 am | Permalink

    Disgusting.

  2. gbjames
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:03 am | Permalink

    Shameful.

  3. Karl Heinz
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:09 am | Permalink

    Are there any polls showing how Ireland’s youth/young adults view abortion? Is there any hope of a change with the next generation(s)?

    • Grania Spingies
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:31 am | Permalink

      The subject is going to have to be re-visited by the end of the year by the government. They probably are willing to put some sort of legislation in place; just not one that wasn’t written by themselves.

      It is however, very unlikely to include an option for abortion on demand even in the first trimester and may only deal with cases where pregnancies are posing a danger to the mother’s life.

      • JBlilie
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:20 am | Permalink

        “It is however, very unlikely to include an option for abortion on demand even in the first trimester”

        This seems virtually certain.

        I just hope they can AT LEAST deal with the life of the mother, for Hank’s sake!

  4. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:14 am | Permalink

    Reblogged this on After his Image and commented:
    I have followed this, and find such ignorance rather disgusting..it reminds me of Sinead O’Connor in one of her songs..”and they say we are a Christian country”..such is the value of a female life to a “Catholic country” such as Ireland.

    • Notagod
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:55 am | Permalink

      Except that is the problem. It is the domination by christianity that is the problem.

      • Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:38 pm | Permalink

        The christian domination is the problem…I am surprised that here in the states that abortion has any legality with the way people act sometimes. In Arizona, they’ve declared that pregnancy even occurs two weeks prior to fertilization..(lots of unwed virgin and pregnant Marys there.. ;-( )

  5. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    reblogged.. great update on this nonsense!

  6. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:15 am | Permalink

    Just terrible.

  7. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:16 am | Permalink

    My wife and I were planing a trip to England Scotland and Ireland but after Ireland’s stand on abortion we decided to skip Ireland totally. The Irish are known for their love of human rights so why has their government taken this inhumane stand on women’s rights? I can hardly believe their stupidity and must lay the blame at the door of the Catholic church. Catholics should boycott their church to force the church to take action on child abuse and abortion.

    • Rhetoric
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:21 am | Permalink

      They are just following Catholic doctrine, you can’t expect other Catholics to try and repeal this law. The fetus is a fully-fledged child of god at conception – this law is just a natural extension of that belief.

      Remember, thou shalt not murder. And to Catholics, abortion is just that.

      • Linda Grilli Calhoun
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:33 am | Permalink

        Whereas allowing the mother to die screaming in pain is just ducky.

        Ooooh, another fine example of Jeebus love. L

      • Grania Spingies
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:47 am | Permalink

        That isn’t entirely accurate.

        It’s fair to say that a great many Irish Catholics do think that abortion should be available, although under what circumstances varies from person to person. They absolutely do not adhere to Catholic doctrine – only a very small minority of people in Ireland can be said to take Catholic doctrine seriously.

        Irish Catholic women travel to the UK to obtain abortions too.

        • Rhetoric
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:32 am | Permalink

          I am talking about Catholics. Not psuedo-Catholics like Andrew Sullivan. I am sure there are plenty of psuedos in Ireland, unforutnately not too many of them hold any real power in the legislature.

          And if the real Catholics are only a small minority, then it is quite impressive that they elected a whole legislature who entirely agrees with their worldview.

          • Grania Spingies
            Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:45 am | Permalink

            The current situation in Ireland is a direct legacy of fundamentalist Catholicism; but it isn’t correct to describe either the government or the majority of people who identify as Catholic as such. Recent polls (for what they are worth – and predating the Savita tragedy) put the percentage of Irish people supporting abortion under certain circumstances at over 60%.

            “Abortion is murder” is certainly the opinion of the church and of the pro-life brigade, but that opinion is not what is causing the hold-up here. It is rather more complicated than that.

            • Rhetoric
              Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:23 am | Permalink

              I mean, it must be then (more complicated that is).

              The current legislature just chose to not pass the current bill that Jerry talks about up top, one that I feel any psuedo-Catholic could agree with – the woman can abort if her life is in danger. By a large majority. Nearly 4-1. And this is AFTER the Savita incident.

              • Grania Spingies
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:29 am | Permalink

                Yes, I agree with what you are thinking.

                But it certainly seems to a large degree the overwhelming No vote last night can be attributed to the fact that the majority party did not author the current proposed legislation.

                I agree with both yourself and Jerry that to allow petty politics to control a decision that can so obviously mean life or death to someone is appalling and immoral.

              • rmw
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:31 am | Permalink

                Grania, why doesn’t the government generally pass bill put forth by the opposition? From Jerry’s OP, it seems that this is common, and not peculiar to the abortion bill.

            • Gary W
              Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:46 am | Permalink

              The current situation in Ireland is a direct legacy of fundamentalist Catholicism

              The current situation in Ireland basically reflects the official teaching of the Catholic Church on abortion. Calling it “fundamentalist Catholicism” makes it sound like it’s the teaching of some extreme fringe group within the Church, but it’s not. It’s the official position.

              • Notagod
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:09 am | Permalink

                That’s like stating that fundamentalist mormons are a fringe group when in fact most mormons are fundamentalist, that is, they accurately follow the lines drawn by their herders. Fundamentalist isn’t a fringe group when their actions are able to support and enact stupidity. Or, the fringe group is controlling the majority, either way and despite what popular opinion might think, fundamentalist doesn’t correlate to fringe.

              • Grania Spingies
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:13 am | Permalink

                It is the official position of the Catholic Church, but it is not the position of the majority of Irish people who call themselves Catholic. (I’ve written about this before on this site, I’ll find the link if you want it).

                There is a very wide gulf between the two, especially in the last decade or so, so in a manner of speaking the official church position is very much the fringe position. Thank god.

                The other point is that in Ireland the Catholic Church no longer has the power to have a hand in making the law, however much it may try to influence it.

              • Gary W
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:25 am | Permalink

                Observing an official, traditional, orthodox, mainstream teaching of a religion is not “fundamentalism.”

              • Gary W
                Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:41 am | Permalink

                It is the official position of the Catholic Church, but it is not the position of the majority of Irish people who call themselves Catholic.

                The fact, if it is a fact, that the majority of Irish people who call themselves Catholic reject a particular teaching of the Catholic Church does not mean that teaching is “fundamentalist.” The basic teachings of the Catholic Church, including the teachings on abortion, do not vary by country and are not defined by what a majority of the people who call themselves Catholic in each country believe.

      • Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:48 am | Permalink

        “The fetus is a fully-fledged child of god at conception – this law is just a natural extension of that belief.”

        Ireland needs to act like the democracy it claims it is, not a theocracy.

        • eric
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:08 am | Permalink

          The legal status of the foetus isn’t even an issue in the X case, cancer case, or Halapanavar case. Go ahead and say its a fully-fledged human beings with all rights and privileges. The choice is still, as JAC points out, between letting one person die or both.

          The situation can be likened to triage. You have two patients. Patient 1 will die without treament but is likely to survive with it. Patient 2 will likely die regardless of whether you treat or not. For whatever reason (resources, time, or beacuse the cases are inextricably linked), you can’t treat both. So, what do you do? Answer: you treat 1 and not 2. Its brutal, its horrible, but its also the most humane thing you can do. And its still the most humane thing you can do even if patient 2 is considered fully human.

          • JBlilie
            Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:56 am | Permalink

            Really well said, thank you!

          • rmw
            Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:33 am | Permalink

            Nice comparison, Eric.

          • Gary W
            Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:47 am | Permalink

            I don’t think your triage analogy works. That situation involves withholding life-saving treatment from a person, not actively killing a person. Given the premise that the fetus is “a fully-fledged human being with all rights and privileges,” a better analogy would be conjoined twins, one of whom must be killed in order to prevent both from dying.

            • Posted November 30, 2012 at 8:45 am | Permalink

              Should women be legally forced to enter a burning building in order to rescue their toddlers?

              No?

              Then why should they be legally forced to risk their lives for their fetuses?

              b&

              • Gary W
                Posted November 30, 2012 at 5:21 pm | Permalink

                Then why should they be legally forced to risk their lives for their fetuses?

                I don’t think they should be.

                As usual with you, your question is a bizarre nonsequitur that has nothing to do with the point I made in the comment you’re responding to.

              • Posted November 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm | Permalink

                Erm…sorry. I thought it was obvious that we were trading analogies….

                b&

              • Gary W
                Posted November 30, 2012 at 10:23 pm | Permalink

                Your analogy suffers from the same basic problem as the triage one. It ignores the do/allow distinction. We generally consider it far more wrong to perform an act that kills someone than to fail to perform an act that would save someone. That’s why murder is a serious crime but failing to provide life-saving assistance generally isn’t a crime at all. Thus, granting the stated premise (that the fetus is “a fully-fledged human being with all rights and privileges”) abortion could be seen as far more wrong than failing to rescue a child from a burning building.

  8. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:17 am | Permalink

    According to Christians, Jesus said : “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s”, wich means a total separation between the goverment and the religious conciousness. Then why the Catholic Church has the power to stop the abortion legislation?

    • Grania Spingies
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:27 am | Permalink

      They don’t.

      What they have done – over decades – is create a chilling effect around discussion of the subject. People are afraid to address it for fear of offending their neighbor. Governments have been afraid to deal with it for fear of offending their voters.

  9. Rhetoric
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:18 am | Permalink

    What do you expect when you let a bunch of bronze age philosophy buffs, who think they are secretly immortal, control a government.

  10. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:51 am | Permalink

    +1

  11. Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    …and Christians have the sheer, unmitigated gall to claim that theirs is a religion of love and compassion that has great reverence for all human life.

    Why did I have to read this just as I was finishing breakfast?

    b&

  12. Hempenstein
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:55 am | Permalink

    Meanwhile, the Pope is hawking a book on when Hypothetical Jesus was born.

    But given the idiocy of the Irish system, I haven’t heard anyone question why her doctors, apparently fully cognizant that this was a non-viable fetus, strained to hear a heartbeat. If she was on a monitor that gave telltale evidence, then I guess our state of technology may bear a bit of the blame.

    • eric
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:13 am | Permalink

      Well, first you’re assuming they were sympathetic to the woman and not true believers.

      Okay, let’s go with that assumption. I’m sure that such people would realize that hospital administration and the involved politicians weren’t completely stupid. I’m sure they realied that they would get just as fired/indicted/vilifed for trying such a transparent work-around as they would’ve if they’d just gone ahead with the procedure.

      • John Scanlon, FCD
        Posted December 2, 2012 at 9:34 am | Permalink

        But they still chose to kill the woman.

        Cowards.

  13. david middle
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:20 am | Permalink

    An apalling way for a european country to act, when they have been instructed by ECHR that the current legislation in Eire is illegal.

  14. Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:25 am | Permalink

    Some 40 years ago, as a young teen, I was deeply and darkly impressed with an old (even then) black and white movie on this very topic. I thought it starred Joey Bishop as the Irish Catholic priet, but I cannot find the movie. In it, a woman was at term, but the baby was too large to pass through the birth canal. I don’t recall why a C-section wasn’t done. The movie ends with the priest having refused permission for an abortion, knowing both mother and fetus will, necessarily, die in childbirth, and in the background, one hears the horrifying cries of the mother in excruciating, unmitigated, pre-death pain.

    • Grania Spingies
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:31 am | Permalink

      That’s another sordid episode of Irish history.

      The Catholic Church believed that women who availed of a caesarian section would be more like to use contraceptives in future; so they advised hospitals not to perform them so as not to encourage the use of evil contraceptives.

      Instead they advised that painful symphiotomies should be performed instead (literally breaking the pelvis and causing life-long pain and related disabilities); often without the woman’s prior knowledge or consent.

      http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0712/1224319859998.html

      • Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:39 am | Permalink

        OMGawd! As an orthopaedic surgeon, the pelvic girdle always fascinated me, and the injuries I’ve seen, including those such as you describe but caused accidently, are … beyond words! To do such a thing deliberately…!
        Recently, I found more brutal, Catholic induced abuse of women. Have you heard of The Magdelene Sisters (movie based on documentary), Magdelene Asylum, or Magdelene Laundries? These also took place in Ireland. The last finally closed in late 1996! There are still women living who were isolated, abused and tortured, there, in the name of religion.

      • Hempenstein
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:13 am | Permalink

        So instead of a Caesarian, they crush the pelvis – this is supposed to make the woman LESS likely to opt for contraception? And those people considered themselves thinking people…

        • gravelinspector
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:59 am | Permalink

          So instead of a Caesarian, they crush the pelvis – this is supposed to make the woman LESS likely to opt for contraception?

          She dies at the next attempted childbirth, reducing the possibility of her ever using contraception. It’s for her soul’s own good, of course.
          Now get back to doing your penance for even thinking about doubting the holy word of Monsignor Bloggs!

        • JohnnieCanuck
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 3:16 pm | Permalink

          No, you haven’t got that quite right. The expectation is that after the symphysiotomy, she will be able to give birth relatively easily and repeatedly. More than a dozen, if the priests were lucky. Her only hope being that some of the first few would be girls and able to help with the rest because of the crippling nature of the damage.

          The concern was that once a C-section was done, all the rest would have to be done the same and there is a limit of about four, before the uterus is too scarred and weakened to have more. After that, then there would be a need for sterilisation or contraception and that wouldn’t do at all.

      • sigh
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:28 am | Permalink

        It is estimated that 1,500 Irish women unknowingly and without consent underwent symphysiotomies during childbirth between 1944—1992. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphysiotomy

        • HaggisForBrains
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:53 am | Permalink

          I feel sick.

        • JBlilie
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:00 am | Permalink

          Holy shit.

        • rmw
          Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:37 am | Permalink

          1992!? THAT recent?

          • gravelinspector
            Posted November 29, 2012 at 12:00 pm | Permalink

            See comments above about the 1994 child-rape case, and the 2010 and 2012 medical murder cases. That recent.

      • rmw
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:36 am | Permalink

        That is absolutely horrifying! The things done in the name of religion. :(

  15. eric
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 8:59 am | Permalink

    Am I getting this right? The RCC in Ireland says you can’t use birth control, and you can’t endanger the foetus with life-saving chemotherapy or radiation therapy if you get cancer.

    So basically, if a woman gets life-threatening cancer, no sex for her or she dies.

    • eric
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:04 am | Permalink

      Slight addition. The anti-prophylaxis stance of the RCC is based on the idea that destroying/wasting seed is bad. I bet chemo and radiation therapy on men kills sperm, though. Funny, they don’t oppose chemo in the case of virile men, only pregnant women.

      • Notagod
        Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:48 am | Permalink

        It isn’t even consistent with their own position, as murdering a woman destroys the chance for more babies while murdering a man doesn’t.

        By their actions the first commandment of christianity is The Pope Stinkith for Heaven.

    • gravelinspector
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 12:03 pm | Permalink

      Sex is only for procreation, therefore you go and have a full medical (including checking the state of your ready-to-fertilize eggs) before you have sex.
      I mean, that’s only going to be at most once every 10 months, so it’s not too much of an imposition.
      What? You want sex for entertainment? Monsignor Bloggs is waiting outside for you with the wire brush and Dettol for your penance!

  16. RFW
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:17 am | Permalink

    I wonder how much money the Irish RCC gives to candidates for office?

    • sigh
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:32 am | Permalink

      I wonder how much money the RCC stole from vulnerable elderly people over the centuries, and how much money they should have paid in taxes.

    • Posted November 29, 2012 at 9:47 am | Permalink

      You got it backwards. The RCC doesn’t give money, it takes it.

  17. raven
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:43 am | Permalink

    Ireland claims to have a low maternal mortality rate.

    This is likely false, a lie.

    They cook their statistics. Women don’t die of pregnancy or miscarriage. They die of septicemia, septic shock, DIC, or hemorrhage. Which can be caused, of course, by a pregnancy or miscarriage going wrong. Or they die of heart failure, the all purpose diagnosis.

    It’s likely the real Irish maternal mortality statistics are 2 to 4 times higher than they report.

    Hitchens: Religion poisons everything.

  18. JBlilie
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 11:17 am | Permalink

    The RCC has been pretty clear on this, even in the US, where, thankfully, they don’t have the politcal sway they have in Ireland*:

    Margaret McBride

    Let ‘em both die: It’s god’s will …

    Disgusting.

    * Though it’s very worrisome that 6 of 9 US Supreme Court Justices are now Catholic; all of them except Bader Ginsburg, Breyer, and Kagan (all Jews).

  19. MadScientist
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 12:23 pm | Permalink

    It just goes to show how evil and stupid religion is. God damn the pope and his evil hordes. Oh, wait – damn, there is no god!

  20. Posted November 29, 2012 at 1:52 pm | Permalink

    This ill probably silence some people like this, who have been trying to absolve their beloved Church and trying to put the blame on the doctors.

    And for an account of how much the Church seems to be out of touch with its own “followers” have a look at this.

  21. Filippo
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 3:33 pm | Permalink

    ” . . . Michelle Harte, had to travel to UK for an abortion before she could get treatment for cancer, for that treatment could endanger the fetus!. As the Irish Times reports, by the time she got permission to leave for the abortion . . . .”

    Above and beyond the apparently approved permission to depart a country implied by the granting of a passport, does every Irish citizen have to ask permission of some bureaucrat to leave on a specific trip? Had she kept secret her decision to get an abortion, could that have made the crucial difference? Could she have gotten by with replying, “on holiday” or “on business”? (One typically gets asked on arrival the purpose of her/his visit, as opposed to on departure, or at least that’s my quite limited experience as an Amuricuhn.) What’s with this business of having to “get permission,” and from whom?

    • Gary W
      Posted November 29, 2012 at 4:03 pm | Permalink

      does every Irish citizen have to ask permission of some bureaucrat to leave on a specific trip?

      I’m sure they don’t. And any requirement to get government permission to leave the country for the specific purpose of procuring an abortion would be unenforcable anyway. Such is the absurdity of Irish law on abortion. Irish women have long been traveling to the UK to get abortions.

  22. Torbjörn Larsson, OM
    Posted November 29, 2012 at 7:04 pm | Permalink

    Appaling!

  23. Posted November 29, 2012 at 10:33 pm | Permalink

    This is another prime example of why we need to take away the term “pro-life” from those obsessed with(little “l”) life, and give the term back to those who really are focused on what it means to preserve (capital “L”) Life–those more interested in insuring the health the bigger system to which (little “l”) life belongs. (Be it as narrow as the mother’s body as the source of nourishment for the fetus and the environment into which the child will be born, or even more widely as the planet as a whole.)

    There’s simply nothing “pro-life” about letting a mother die along with her fetus when she could have been saved. We’ve lost both lives when one could have been preserved. This type of action is indefensible for someone who is sincerely interested in preserving Life and not just trying to exact an authoritarian rule over women.

  24. aljones909
    Posted November 30, 2012 at 4:46 am | Permalink

    Is it not the case that around 50% of conceptions result in a spontaneous abortion? Is god responsible for designing a reproductive system that causes this wastage of human souls? Or do religionists think god’s not reponsible – it’s caused by our sinful nature.

  25. Kevin
    Posted November 30, 2012 at 2:34 pm | Permalink

    “Every woman who dies in these situations has friends and family who love her; and even one such death is too many.”

    Are you including in this a death caused by complications arising out of an abortion that was not “necessary” to save the mother’s life?

    Are you including in this death by partial-birth abortion, or is it a defence to a charge of killing that the victim had no friends and family?

    Aside from the absence of US legislation to prevent these deaths right now, the statements of fact in this posting are questionable. For example, the Council of Europe is not the EU.

  26. Posted December 1, 2012 at 6:46 am | Permalink

    This is disgusting. Life of the person you see is more important than for the one you have not seen and may never see.

  27. Gwenfrewi
    Posted December 1, 2012 at 3:30 pm | Permalink

    Overall, however, Ireland has a much better record for maternal health than most countries including the UK and the USA.

    And there are cases of legal abortion in the UK which have resulted in maternal death, but they don’t hit the headlines in the way Savita’s case has done.

    • Grania Spingies
      Posted December 1, 2012 at 4:51 pm | Permalink

      That is the standard Youth Defence / Anti-abortion claim, yes. It is utterly irrelevant to the question of whether abortion should be available to women.

      • Posted December 1, 2012 at 5:17 pm | Permalink

        Yes, it completely ignores a person’s right — or lack thereof — to chose which risks to take and which to avoid. Smokers get choices which affect not only their personal health but the health of those exposed to the smoker’s secondary and even tertiary smoke. How a smoker has the right to negatively affect the health of others without their consent, while a woman lacks the right to choose whether an abortion of lack thereof is the least risk to her own health and well-being is beyond me.

        (Smokers, as long as your smoke doesn’t reach anyone else, I’m all for your right to choose whether to continue the habit or not. Yes, I realize how hard quitting is. Of course, quitting is secondary to the choice of starting and thereby risking addiction in the first place. Again, I know. I really do.)


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  1. [...] Church gets control of a place. Remember this! For more on this visit Jerry Coyne’s website here. To the glue factory with them! Inhuman thoughtless bastards, the whole fucking lot of [...]

  2. [...] Original article found at: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/the-irish-vote-down-abortion-to-save-a-mothers-li… [...]

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